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Subject: Guns don't kill people, people kill people... rss

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chiddler wrote:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/2951655/Soccer-mum-sho...

...so isn't giving people guns an intensely stupid thing to do?


Whats to stop him from using a knife?
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Are you suggesting that if they didn't have any guns he wouldn't have attempted to kill her?
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From the story:
Quote:
Scott Hain, a parole officer, owned the 9mm handgun used to kill his wife.



A parole officer owning a gun seems perfectly reasonable to me. Regardless of the tragedy here, it's hard to make a case for gun control by suggesting law enforcement officers be disarmed along with the general citizenry.



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Quote:
...so isn't giving people guns an intensely stupid thing to do?


If you can find out who is giving people guns over here, let me know. Except for the two I inherited, I've had to buy all mine. In fact, I might buy another one tomorrow, a Beretta cx4 9mm Carbine.

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chiddler wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
Are you suggesting that if they didn't have any guns he wouldn't have attempted to kill her?


Quite possibly not. Guns are designed specifically to make it easy to kill people. You don't need to get your hands dirty or use physical force, usually the target can't fight back. Guns have a MASSIVE psychological effect in terms of making killing an easier act both physically AND mentally.

Even if you dismiss this, without a gun his chance of success when attempting to murder her would have been much lower.


Doubtful his chances would have been much lower in this circumstances, since she was caught off guard. It would probably taken a bit longer, and alot messier, but I doubt he wouldn't have been as successful.

And given that he committed a murder-suicide, when his three children were possibly home, and left them orphans, I'd say he's probably messed up enough that the psychological effects of using a knife wouldn't much matter.
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chiddler wrote:
scribidinus wrote:

Quote:
...so isn't giving people guns an intensely stupid thing to do?


If you can find out who is giving people guns over here, let me know. Except for the two I inherited, I've had to buy all mine. In fact, I might buy another one tomorrow, a Beretta cx4 9mm Carbine.



So you were given 2 guns.

Wow, you hamstrung your own argument the instant you tried to make it - thats impressive!


It undermines his argument that he likes free guns? Come on chiddler, you can do better than that. Annoying and wrong is your MO, not stupid. Try harder.
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chiddler wrote:
Murder-suicides are much more common in populations with widespread gun ownership, because guns turn an thought into reality so very easily. Its altogether possible he wouldn't have done it at all without guns, and frankly the individual case isn't really the issue, it was merely an illustration, an example.


Anecdotal evidence is evidence of nothing. I can point to anecdotal stories of guns used to prevent a crime, and it means just as much.


chiddler wrote:
Widespread firearms ownership solves no problems


Well, thats certainly incorrect.
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I think it's an excellent idea to keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible human beings. That's why I support firearms bans in England, New Zealand, Australia, France and actually, pretty much any country stuffed to the gills with people who don't like firearms.

I don't see why someone in... I dunno... Belgium or New Zealand would oppose Americans having weapons. We keep you foreign guys from having to figure out how to handle them responsibly... which is a task a little above your trust level anyway.

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"Monster kills wife." So, irony aside, yes, people kill people.

This is a sad story, but I don't see how guns played an important role. As others have mentioned, this man could likely have killed his wife just as easily with a knife, or with his bare hands for that matter. (And if impulsive suicide is part of the issue, not only does one have myriad options, but I'm also unwilling to say that society should restrict someone from ending his own life, selfish as that decision may be.)

Even though I'm for gun ownership, I'll admit that there are cases where a legitimate discussion about it can take place (say, Columbine, where the particular weapons allowed the kids to kill more people than they would have otherwise). That said, I don't see how guns were particularly relevant this time, except in trite terms of "Ahh. She liked guns and was killed by one. How ironic."
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chiddler wrote:

Murder-suicides are much more common in populations with widespread gun ownership, because guns turn an thought into reality so very easily. Its altogether possible he wouldn't have done it at all without guns, and frankly the individual case isn't really the issue, it was merely an illustration, an example.

Widespread firearms ownership solves no problems and creates many.


There is the hidden cost of restricting what people can and cannot do to consider.

Maybe the world would be a better place with no guns. It might well also be a better place (depending on what you, or what consensus, considers "better") without books, movies, or board games, such that everyone could be a fit, productive, more-contributing member of society. Couldn't that time spent reading or playing games be better-used volunteering or working out, in society's greater interest?

I realize there is a slippery gradient of what an individual can be allowed to do in an era of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, but I think that erring on the side of restricting freedom is a grievous error. For every "guns kill people more easily than not-having-guns" argument, there's one that says "homosexuals don't deserve to marry, because a heterosexual couple leads to breeding more hard-working citizens" or one that says "smoking should be illegal because it's unhealthy; who cares if informed citizens enjoy it anyway?".

I'm unwilling to sacrifice the principle of freedom and happiness of the many--including groups who most need to have their general freedoms protected since a greater populace thinks it's abnormal--because something like guns allow evil people to do evil acts with slightly greater ease.
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Ok, you got your AHA! moment. My grandfather and my father each left me a gun. The other 15 or 20 or so that I have owned I paid for. I've never given any away. I've legally sold or traded some away but never given any away. Not even to my sons, yet.

Let me assure you that there are no organizations giving guns to people as your post implies. No Guns for the Needy charities, banks don't give you a free gun for opening a checking account and they don't put cheap nickel plated .25 caliber semi-autos in Cracker Jack boxes.

Law abiding people buy most of them. I have several guns in addition to the two gifts. I will probably buy another gun tomorrow if I can negotiate a price I like. When I buy one from an FFL, I submit to a Federal background check. To get my concealed carry permit, I had to take an 8 hour class on gun laws and gun safety and pass written test as well as a marksmanship test. I have no problem with any of that.

I don't keep track of every poster on the geek but if I recall correctly you seem to put an inflammatory anti-American culture tag line on every post. So you and I are from different cultures and I suspect different generations. We are not going to change each others mind about very much. I'll agree to disagree but I certainly don't need your pity for growing up the way I did in this culture and in this country.

Edit:

Quote:
So you were given 2 guns.


I inherited two guns from family members who died. I think there is a qualitative difference. By the way, my father was a US Naval Aviator in the South Pacific in WW II. I suspect New Zealanders of his generation had a different perspective on gun culture and America than you do.



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scribidinus wrote:
Let me assure you that there are no organizations giving guns to people as your post implies. No Guns for the Needy charities, banks don't give you a free gun for opening a checking account and they don't put cheap nickel plated .25 caliber semi-autos in Cracker Jack boxes.


Well, at least until the Zombie Apocalypse, and then those will be sound marketing strategies.
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people...

...and so do monkeys if they have a gun.
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Think of the children.
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Maybe this whole argument should go in the exact opposite direction. Maybe we should require every person over the age of 18 to be armed at all times. If you knew everyone around you was armed you might be a lot more polite and respectful to them.
And those that chose to be violent and use their guns wrongly might quickly be gunned down by the multitude of others around them! All the violent and dangerous people might be eliminated very fast.

Oh, and for the record I do not own guns.
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xlhrider wrote:
Maybe this whole argument should go in the exact opposite direction. Maybe we should require every person over the age of 18 to be armed at all times. If you knew everyone around you was armed you might be a lot more polite and respectful to them.
And those that chose to be violent and use their guns wrongly might quickly be gunned down by the multitude of others around them! All the violent and dangerous people might be eliminated very fast.

Oh, and for the record I do not own guns.


I like the idea but I think we should all be armed with swords. Its a much more personal weapon requiring you to look a man in the eye before you take his life with your blade. It would do three things for society.
1 it would create an economic sector because so many people would need to buy swords.
2 It would improve our level of physical fitness because you need to be in shape to be a good sword fighter.
3 It would improve everyone's manners based on the old saying an armed society is a polite society.
Also there would be a lot less collateral damage as a sword usually only hits it intended target unlike stray rounds fired in an amateurish fashion in drive by shootings.
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Fortune wrote:
Guns don't kill people, people kill people...

...and so do monkeys if they have a gun.

I always thought it was the bullets traveling at 900 mph that kill people...
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kusinohki wrote:
Fortune wrote:
Guns don't kill people, people kill people...

...and so do monkeys if they have a gun.

I always thought it was the bullets traveling at 900 mph that kill people...


Not if you got the gun from Boris The Blade.
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kusinohki wrote:
Fortune wrote:
Guns don't kill people, people kill people...

...and so do monkeys if they have a gun.

I always thought it was the bullets traveling at 900 mph that kill people...


Nope, monkeys are pretty damned strong... if they hit you on the back of the head with the butt of the gun I think they'd probably off ya. And monkeys have rage issues... they'd probably dance around in the blood whacking people indiscriminately due to all the stupid stuff we've made them do over the years.
 
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mbourgeois wrote:
kusinohki wrote:
Fortune wrote:
Guns don't kill people, people kill people...

...and so do monkeys if they have a gun.

I always thought it was the bullets traveling at 900 mph that kill people...


Nope, monkeys are pretty damned strong... if they hit you on the back of the head with the butt of the gun I think they'd probably off ya. And monkeys have rage issues... they'd probably dance around in the blood whacking people indiscriminately due to all the stupid stuff we've made them do over the years.


Moreover, when they run amok, you can't even use bullets to stop them.

It was beauty killed the beast.
 
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chiddler wrote:
Unlike you, I can read.


Oh! The ultimate insult and argument stopper. What a come back, chiddler! Man! I wish I had your talent for impressive rhetorical retaliatory mud-slinging put-downs. You totally squashed his ego and lambasted his self-esteem with that wonderfully original and crafty back-lash of insightful character assassination. Remind me to never get into a textual fight with you as I don't think I could handle the verbal assault such as the one you delivered to Shushnik. Wow! Good job, dude.

How do you think of such great phrases like "you can't read"? Amazing!
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tada wrote:
chiddler wrote:
Unlike you, I can read.


Oh! The ultimate insult and argument stopper. What a come back, chiddler! Man! I wish I had your talent for impressive rhetorical retaliatory mud-slinging put-downs. You totally squashed his ego and lambasted his self-esteem with that wonderfully original and crafty back-lash of insightful character assassination. Remind me to never get into a textual fight with you as I don't think I could handle the verbal assault such as the one you delivered to Shushnik. Wow! Good job, dude.

How do you think of such great phrases like "you can't read"? Amazing!


The best part, if the insult were true, it couldn't possibly bother the insultee. laugh
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chiddler wrote:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/2951655/Soccer-mum-sho...

...so isn't giving people guns an intensely stupid thing to do?


Thank God OJ Simpson wasn't given a gun or he would have killed someone.
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The moment I read about this tragedy on CNN I thought "That'll be on RSP for sure," then after a momentary pause "and I bet it's posted by Chiddler." I'm going to start geekmailing these flashes to a disinterested third party so I can prove my amazing psychic powers.cool
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