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1805: Sea of Glory» Forums » Rules

Subject: Raided markers: what's the point? rss

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marcus jones
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What is the point of "Raided?" markers in 22.2 of the rules?

I understand that this is meant to increase the uncertainty of the game and the bluff element, especially as a Fog of War can carry out a mock raid and leave a "Raided?" marker. But if the raid is successful the Allied player will get the victory points from the Napoleon Objective. If not, or if it is a Fog of War bluff, he/she won't. Why should the British player waste time going to the port to find out whether there was a successful raid or not by revealing the marker?

I'm sure I am missing something simple but can't see what it is. Can anyone help, please?
 
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Michael Edwards
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From 22.2

Quote:
When the true status of a raid is discovered, a “No raid…” marker is
removed, and a “Raided!” marker remains. A port (or hex 1501) may
only suffer one actual raid, although multiple raid attempts can take
place. If a “Raided!” marker is revealed at Bantry Bay, Malta, Naples,
Alexandria, or any British port in the West Indies, move the Napoleon
Objective corresponding to that port to the Allied VP holding box.
The value of the Objective is not revealed to the British player. The
“Raided!” marker remains on the port.


So, the Napoleon objectives get scored only when the marker is revealed (generally when the British player reconnoiters it, but otherwise when the Allied player decides to reveal it, I assume).

The Emperor’s Directive VPs do require the raid to be revealed, but recall that only one is in play at a time. It has to be revealed due to the possibility that it could change after the raid occurs. Still, giving up that fog of war for 6VPs seems worth it.
 
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Phil Fry
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There is no imperative for the British player to sail to a port and look at the "Raided?" marker, but usually he will want to know where he stands with his VP total.

It also comes into play with some regularity in the West Indies. Is that block conducting raids a Fog of War, or does the Allied player have ships that have slipped out across the Atlantic?

Ask any Allied player in our ongoing Admiralty game how valuable false raids are. (We tied up the British in the Mediterranean chasing down FoW for the better part of two months, while the Rochefort, Ferrol, and Cadiz fleets were actually in the W.Indies putting down real "Raided!" markers.)
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marcus jones
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Many thanks for the helpful replies. I can see that this game has strategic subtleties I had not appreciated. I must play it some more!
 
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Chris Montgomery
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Chanfan wrote:
From 22.2

Quote:
When the true status of a raid is discovered, a “No raid…” marker is
removed, and a “Raided!” marker remains. A port (or hex 1501) may
only suffer one actual raid, although multiple raid attempts can take
place. If a “Raided!” marker is revealed at Bantry Bay, Malta, Naples,
Alexandria, or any British port in the West Indies, move the Napoleon
Objective corresponding to that port to the Allied VP holding box.
The value of the Objective is not revealed to the British player. The
“Raided!” marker remains on the port.


So, the Napoleon objectives get scored only when the marker is revealed (generally when the British player reconnoiters it, but otherwise when the Allied player decides to reveal it, I assume).


My understanding is that upon a successful raid by the Allied player that also achieves an Emperor's Objective, the Emperor's Directive and the Raided marker MUST be revealed. See Rule 21.4.2: "If the Allied player successfully raids or invades the location named on the Emperor's Directive, he must immediately show the chit to the British player, and then moves the chit to his VP box."

Rule 22.2 implies that this might be voluntary: "If the Allied player wishes to claim the Emperor's Directive VPs (in addition to the Napoleon Objective) he must reveal both the successful raid marker and the Emperor's Directive Chit immediately . . ."

Also, why in the hell would the British care whether a space was raided or not? Apparently, if it is raided, the Allies will score the points, and if it is not raided, the Allies won't score the points. So why would the Brits run all over the map checking Raided? markers? Wouldn't they just try to chase down the Allied blocks instead? From my understanding, the Brits can't "unraid" a space--and apparently, they actually hurt themselves if they uncover a Raided? marker that is actually Raided! but they don't help themselves by uncovering a "Not raided".

I am thoroughly confused about the motives of the British player are as to uncovering Raided? markers. I am also completely confused about when a successful Raid actually scores points of the Allied player.

Because of the confusion, can we get some clarification here?

1. When MUST "Raided?" markers be revealed?

2. When MAY "Raided?" markers be revealed?

3. When MUST Emperor's Directive Chits be revealed?

4. Once he has successfully "Raided!" a port, has the Allied player earned the points for the Napoleon Objectives no matter what, or only if the Raided marker is later revealed by the British player? If the latter, why would the Brits want to uncover "Raided?" markers, and why would the Allies want to leave them "Raided?" What I am going for here is, What is the British player's motive to uncover these raided markers? Who cares and why?

Quote:
The Emperor’s Directive VPs do require the raid to be revealed, but recall that only one is in play at a time. It has to be revealed due to the possibility that it could change after the raid occurs. Still, giving up that fog of war for 6VPs seems worth it.


I get the gamble for the French player. If they conduct a raid and are successful, they can leave the maker upside down to draw away the British. What is unclear is whether they will only get the VPs for the the Napoleon Objective at the end of the game if it is revealed, or will they get the points no matter what? What is also unclear is why the British care at all--what motive is there for the British player to investigate these "Raided?" markers as far as winning the game?

Chris Montgomery
 
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Chris Montgomery
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philfry wrote:
There is no imperative for the British player to sail to a port and look at the "Raided?" marker, but usually he will want to know where he stands with his VP total.

It also comes into play with some regularity in the West Indies. Is that block conducting raids a Fog of War, or does the Allied player have ships that have slipped out across the Atlantic?

Ask any Allied player in our ongoing Admiralty game how valuable false raids are. (We tied up the British in the Mediterranean chasing down FoW for the better part of two months, while the Rochefort, Ferrol, and Cadiz fleets were actually in the W.Indies putting down real "Raided!" markers.)


I started a separate thread on this asking the question, but I think it is pretty clear that a Fog of War block can't conduct a fake raid.

Rule 22.1 (p. 19) says "If an Allied fleet is present in an eligible port or hex 1501 . . . that fleet may conduct a raid." [emphasis added].

Rule 2.6 (p. 2) defines a "fleet" as "Any block containing ships."

Fog of War blocks do not contain ships, so they cannot perform (or even fake perform) a raid. Right?

I have started a separate thread for this rules question here.

Cheers.
 
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Phil Fry
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Fog of War cannot "raid", but the Allied player can roll as if conducting a raid. (Hence the "Raided!" and "No Raid" markers.) The mechanic is present to keep the British player from knowing which enemy blocks are fleets and which are fakes.

In the multi-player Admiralty game that just concluded, numerous Fog of War blocks "raided" throughout the Mediterranean causing the British many headaches. In fact, not a single Allied ship ever set sail in the Med. The deception would not have worked if Fog of War were not allowed to roll for a raid.

We will try to clarify the language in the forthcoming living rules to make this a little clearer.

Hope that helps.
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