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Subject: A clever strategy or simple evolution? rss

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J B
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Well since opening the 3rd edition box I have loved being in the 40k universe & all the fluff associated with it. I even bought the mini novel even though I said to myself I wouldn't & have also purchased the two latest editions of White Dwarf.

I played 40k briefly circa 20 years ago but I was young and foolish and before I could become totally immersed other major destractions like women, beer & cars came along and were much more alluring. Now I am 40 and these destractions have long since passed apart from the other half, mores the pity :) I find myself being sucked back in to the 40k universe. I have idled away hours looking at the Lexicanum, GW website and whoooo Forge World. How good is this site. You can even buy an Imperial Citadel all be it just a large part of it but it is still amazing (also very pricey).

Initially I looked at these sites to see possible SH expansion potential and there is some but then you start thinking why not just play the 40k game and hope GW do an expansion at some point for SH as they should. Assault on Black Reach seems good value and would be a relatively cheap way of trying out the 40k game. My only worry is I would like it and then go 40k mad. The only downside I can see with 40k is the minis don't come prepainted and I am no Raphael. Saying this, one thing that has changed from 20 years ago is I now have a thing called a salary and I can see myself getting commission happy albeit at a sensible pace noooooooo. Alternatively I will have to learn to paint but I am one of those people who likes things to look just right and I may end up driving myself insane in the process. I will have to think about it a little while longer to see if the 40k gravity well sucks me in.

With this in mind I was wondering how many others out there are considering the urge to dive in to 40k. While SH may not be a core product for GW. It would certainly appear a clever strategy for attracting new players to the core game. Alternatively it is a simple evolution to play something you have always probably liked or had a niggling interest in but just never had the hook. Especially when you walk into a shop and some spotty GW geek jumps on you and starts talking geekoid to you, almost makes me want to run out. No offense to GW geeks but you are just to keen and to geeky for my geekness.

Anyway are others on the verge of 40k or indeed has SH caused you to jump in already. If so? What has been your experience so far with the rules, gameplay etc.
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William Collins
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Of course it looks like a great game to get into. I fight the urge because

1. I know it will go away (the urge)
2. None of my friends play
3. I don't have time to paint all the figs (I still haven't been able to prime my Space Hulk figs, and I've had those for over a month).
4. I'd rather spend the (rather substantial) money on something else.
5. It looks to me like it really is its own hobby, as opposed to an extension of board gaming or even gaming in general, and I have far too many hobbies already.

So, while it does, indeed, beckon (let's face it, it's cool and there's a reason why folks shell out all that money and time for it) I just don't think that 40K is for me.
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Brent Lloyd
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Chimaera wrote:
Well since opening the 3rd edition box I have loved being in the 40k universe & all the fluff associated with it. I even bought the mini novel even though I said to myself I wouldn't & have also purchased the two latest editions of White Dwarf.

........My only worry is I would like it and then go 40k mad.



and it boggles my mind that GW does not see what a gateway a game like this is into their other games.

Peace
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Don't be fooled by Space Hulk's allure. It is not 40k...it's a gateway drug for 40k in many ways.

A few reasons not to go whole hog for 40k:

- GW's planned obsolescence for their 40k lines. If you invest hundreds (at a minimum) you shouldn't be expected to shell out 40-60 every few years for just books, let alone all the units, figs, etc. that are now not legal to keep up with GW. It's the miniature equivalent of Magic:The Gathering...once you're on the upgrade wheel your wallet just bleeds until you stop.

- Accessory Hell... Transporting Space Hulk is hazardous enough. Now consider the added space of Army Transport bags, foam inserts, rules, codecies, blast templates, etc. on top of all that!

- Inconsistent gaming communities... Some are pretty cool and allow some proxying. Other local chapters are plain old nuts and will only play WYSIWYG...so welcome to the bitz wagon for $5-$10 chunks to get that 1 gun for that 1 guy in the squad you wanted because the local chaps won't just let you proxy. (NOTE: This kind of fanaticism is pretty rare...but check out the local scene before diving in!)

- Metal / Plastic mix. This is personal taste I guess, but I hate mixed model types...I get it for vehicles vs. troops, but between troops? It just feels funny to me and investing in all metal isn't the best route to go and most of the best sculpts are in metal so you'll end up with a separate set of glue, pin vices, green stuff, etc. that suits both metal and plastics.

The beauty of the Hulk is that it scratches an itch. You can certainly buy some figs to bring in other races, etc. as more house rules start to pop up and the eventual expansion that's sure to surface in the future. It allows you to dip your toes in the waters of 40k, get a satisfying experience, and still back out before you're marching your Eldar warpspiders across a board one day supported by fire prisms and thinking...nuts...a couple hundred points of this army is going to be obsolete or ineffective against the next round of my opponent's army or GW release!
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Bill Gates
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I eventually collected full armies for both Blood Angels (couple tactical squads, Devastator squad, Death Company, Honor Guard, Furioso dreadnought, Land Raider, Land Speeders, bunch of Rhinos, Captain Tycho, Brother Corbulo) and Tyranids (Hive Tyrants, Carnifex, bunch of Tyranid Warriors, gargoyles, Lictors, Raveners, Red Terror, termagaunts, hormagaunts, Zoanthrope, Biovore and, of course, lots of genestealers), but I haven't added anything in something like four years and have come to prefer AT-43.

(Also, with four Warhammer armies, I had to cut back somewhere).
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Kevin Outlaw
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I don't play 40K, but I do collect Warhammer goblin and Bretonnian armies.

I have to say, the thing about armies becoming obsolete isn't any where near as bad as it sounds. I gave up on GW before I went to university (12 years ago). I got back into it about four years ago and started collecting gobbos again, because that's what I had before. Things aren't that different - same war machines, same units, just a few different rules. I am painting up a speak chucka at the moment - it is the same damn model I had 12 years ago and has the same rules.

At the end of the day, if you buy a squad of termies there will always be a space in an army for them, the rules for them might just get a bit tweaked. You aren't suddenly going to have to scrap everything and start again (and you would only need to do that if you weren't prepared to house rule or proxy - i.e. it's only a problem for tournament players or people who are a little too inflexible for their own good).

Only occasionally do things drop off the radar completely - Chaos Dwarfs, Squats, and Hybrids spring to mind.

HOWEVER - GW sell a hobby, not a game. The games are pretty much there to give you something to do with the pretty models you have collected. Believe me - they know that Space Hulk is a gateway game, but their other products are NOTHING like it. Same universe, but that's where the line gets drawn.

If you have no interest in collecting, modelling, and painting, my advice is to take a step back. Like I said, these games do not have the best ruleset in the world, and they really are just a framework for you to come up with your own stuff.

I don't go to games clubs or play people I don't know down at the local GW store. I mainly paint and collect, and occasionally I push a few models around the kitchen table and roll dice to justify my insanity (or perhaps to confirm it).

Cheers.
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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As an ex-Warhammer Fantasy collector (Chaos and Bretonians) I find it easy to resist the allure... However I am considering getting a box of Genestealers (to replace the scuplts I don't care for) and a Carnifex (just because it looks friggin cool).

I looked at the Chaos (and other factions) Terminators and was not enamored with them immediately...

Now if I could only cure my addiction to collecting WWII n-scale and 15mm armor I will be able to save some money.
 
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Bruce Moffatt
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Damn, I feel the OPs pain.

On purchasing SH 3rd edition, I found myself combing storage boxes and pulling out my old 40K and Dark Millennium boxes, plus a chunk of miniatures that I had purchased at the time and the first three codex books they released for that edition (Space Wolves, Orks and Eldar). I have most of the main characters from the Space Wolves and the Dreadnought and a couple of squads. Hell, I even found a Predator troop transport all minty and unbuilt in it's box!

As I was perusing the GW website, I saw all the shiny new 40K stuff that had been released and started debating the worth of picking up the Black Reach set to get the new rules. Then I started wondering if my current miniatures would cut it with the new rules. I don't play at clubs, so proxying won't be an issue at home playing with my son. The rules are certainly out of date, so I'd have to pick up a new rulebook.

Without a doubt, GW put something in their stuff that works like a drug You get the unbearable urge to buy more after you start handling it.

Funnily enough, I have never got the bug for Warhammer Fantasy past Advanced Heroquest and Warhammer Quest. I guess that's something of a relief (especially for our family budget )
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Chimaera wrote:
Anyway are others on the verge of 40k or indeed has SH caused you to jump in already. If so? What has been your experience so far with the rules, gameplay etc.

Oh, yeah - I'm there. I have some experience with minis already as I'm a big Heroscape fan and played a bit of Mage Knight when it first came out. I know 40K is lightyears away from those but it looks like it scratches some of the same itch. Besides, I just finished painting my SH set and I have to say I really enjoyed it. I could see myself really getting into that part of the hobby.

My thought is to pick up the AoBR set and give it a go. I figure if I hate the game then I can use the minis as SH alternates with 1st Ed rules. I'd have to work up something for the Orcs but there are a few variants around for those. Some of the other stuff I could probably trade off or something.

One of the things that's encouraging me to go this route, I'll admit, is that my FLGS has just started carrying GW and is looking at setting up a regular game time. If I didn't have a place that I liked to play, I'd probably be giving this a lot less thought.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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GW really really should have put out more rules for introducing the other races into 1st ed Space Hulk. And 3rd Ed could have certainly benefitted from a WD article or three with new conversions.

As for the units getting obsolete. As was stated above. It depends on what group you are with. I had one group back in MN that could have cared less what you added in. But the one here in MI is the exact opposite and disallows anything that isnt GW specific.

But is also depends on the armys you collected in the past. Orks and most Marines and even the Eldar havent changed alot. But the Tyrranids and WHFB Lizard Men have undergone dramatic changes in sculpts such that a few units now are night unrecognizable. (Im looking specifically at the Tyranid warriors and Lizard men Sarus as examples that leap to mind right off.)

Depending on your local group fanaticizm level this may or hopefully may not pose a problem.

Its a very situational/regional issue rather than a systemic one pervading the whole. (No idea on the official tournament level of whats good and not.)
 
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Justin Fitzgerald
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MrSkeletor wrote:

But....
the starter sets for both look good. Is it worth getting them and just playing them stand alone?


They're pretty limited games. You can only have the same 2 squads shoot at each other so many times. Basically the box sets exist to be gateways into buying more.
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Todd Pytel
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I thought about it. Briefly. As others commented, it strikes me as a very large time and money drain. All the more so because I'm unconvinced that WFB/40K are actually very good games by the standards that BGG'ers have. I remember them being fun but fairly dicey and loosey-goosey when I played them many years ago. I've seen local players at the FLGS argue rules interpretations for half an hour. And I'm totally unimpressed with the rules editing and post-production clarifications for SH. As others said, WFB/40K seems more of a modelling/painting hobby, with thoughtful, analytical gaming just an afterthought. Maybe it's just the editing that's iffy and the system as intended is tight and fun. But when rules appear sloppy, that's usually a sign that more energy could have been put into the design in the first place. I'm much more a gamer than a painter/modeller, so I'll stick with SH myself.
 
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Abdul Rahman Ibrahim
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I feverishly looked at 40k related websites and blogs a week before and after getting the game (till now). Still have no urge to start WH40K nor buy the model but it sure is fun looking at other people's work. Besides, I'm already a Warmachine player and I'd rather not get myself into another wargame that'll suck more money off me. I'm happy with my steam robots.
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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Scrat wrote:
Then I started wondering if my current miniatures would cut it with the new rules.

Yes, it will. You *may* need to change some bases (terminators are now on 40mm bases) and they may not look as cool as modern figures. Some places also don't allow anything but the newest figures, but this is a community thing, not an official GW line or anything, bringing us to...

medlinke wrote:

- Inconsistent gaming communities... Some are pretty cool and allow some proxying. Other local chapters are plain old nuts and will only play WYSIWYG...so welcome to the bitz wagon for $5-$10 chunks to get that 1 gun for that 1 guy in the squad you wanted because the local chaps won't just let you proxy. (NOTE: This kind of fanaticism is pretty rare...but check out the local scene before diving in!)

QFT


medlinke wrote:

- GW's planned obsolescence for their 40k lines. If you invest hundreds (at a minimum) you shouldn't be expected to shell out 40-60 every few years for just books, let alone all the units, figs, etc. that are now not legal to keep up with GW. It's the miniature equivalent of Magic:The Gathering...once you're on the upgrade wheel your wallet just bleeds until you stop.

I've never understood how anyone can think that this goes on to the extent it does in spite of the evidence of the last decade. Plus see Carbon Copy's example above.
Yes, you'll have to but the odd new rulebook, and perhaps the occasional few figures, you'd be looking at an upkeep of around two to three hours minimum wage pay a year to maintain an army. This is a hobby in it's own right, and it's hardly a large amount.

Put another way, the Ork Codex released last year made my Gretchin unit invalid unless I added a single extra Runtheard to it. Some other things changed their names. Woe is me. Total cost, £15 for the Codex, 50p to covert-up a second Runtheard, I already have paints.
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Slev wrote:
I've never understood how anyone can think that this goes on to the extent it does in spite of the evidence of the last decade. Plus see Carbon Copy's example above.


Honestly! I get a sense that the people who get really fired up about "obsolescence" are tournament players who find a rules gimmick and build an entire army around exploiting that gimmick only for GW to fix it a few years later, rendering those one-trick-pony armies much less competitive. Screw those guys for gaming the system in the first place.

If you build a well-rounded army with a wide selection of units then it'll be easy to adapt to rules tweaks - you certainly won't ever be hosed. (And who wouldn't want a good selection of units anyway? All of the army ranges are really neat, in my opinion.)
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Slev Sleddeddan
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SleightOfHand wrote:

Honestly! I get a sense that the people who get really fired up about "obsolescence" are tournament players who find a rules gimmick and build an entire army around exploiting that gimmick only for GW to fix it a few years later, rendering those one-trick-pony armies much less competitive. Screw those guys for gaming the system in the first place.


You're not the only one.

There are a *few* items here and there that have been traumatic changes.

Undead armies from pre-6th could have everything. Now they have to choose "wet" (no SSC or mummies) or Dry (No Vampires or Zombies) Undead.

The only significant "cancelled" armies are Chaos Dwarfs for WFB (still legal!) and Squats for 40K, which have been OOP for over half the life of the game, and never had many figure to start.
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Scott Dresden
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The thing that steers me clear of minis games are the hobby aspect. I barely have time to play the games I have. Adding another hobby layer on top of the gaming aspect would just cause me to PLAY less.

I've always hated the painting aspect so, right there it's a no go for me anymore. I still have all my old Ork(c) army stuff for both WFB and 40k and will occasionally break em out for a game with the friends.

I'm also pretty bitter that they have discontinued some of my favorite game systems ......

Scott
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Joseph LaClair
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MrSkeletor wrote:
I have no urge to get into either warhammer or 40K.


But....
the starter sets for both look good. Is it worth getting them and just playing them stand alone?


I have 3 starter sets, "Warhammer Battle for Skull Pass" " 40K Battle For Macragge" and "40K Black Reach". I bought them #1 because they came with a lot for the money, #2 I thought that I might like to give table top a try sometime, #3 Hey, I can use these figs in other games I have.

So far, other than cutting and glueing the models together, they just sit in the box. The rules seem a bit like a slog to get through and I just havn't put the time in to learn the game. But each set comes with some cool things and they probably are decent enough as stand alone games but I havn't actually played them.

Love those orcs in the "Mad Max" copters from Black Reach. Probably will never be used but they sure look neat.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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MrSkeletor wrote:
I have no urge to get into either warhammer or 40K.


But....
the starter sets for both look good. Is it worth getting them and just playing them stand alone?


Both games come with "complete" armies, but they are obviously relatively limited. EG: Black Reach comes with a squad of marines, a squad of terminators, a captain, and a dreadnought (that's not a bad start) and also some orks, some bigger orks, a really big ork, and some helicopters (again, pretty good going).

Now, if you just line those two armies up and run them at each other, then a half dozen times round the block and you will be pretty much out of fun, but if you come up with different scenarios to play with, you can get much more out of it (kind of like Space Hulk really). For example, create scenarios where one squad of marines are trying to outpace the choppers to get somewhere, or there is an ambush, or whatever... So, yeah, I think there is enough in the box to keep you about as entertained as a normal sort of game, but it really is a hobby game, and you won't get the most out of it unless you paint, model, and build an army.
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Leaving some of the other issues aside for now. I was wondering how the game actually played out. For example lets look at the newly released Space Wolves. They are made up of various elements. Do these elements really make a difference e.g. do the more mobile Sky Claws play like a very mobile unit/cavalry. The thing that sort of attracts me (apart from the theme & fluff) is the various strengths within an army and having the ability to tactically deploy these strenghts to effect within the game. Can an opponent be tricked in to a flanking action? Can long range weapons be used as a valid suppresion tool? Do commanders actually grant valid effects that aren't abusive? Or is 40k like a lot of miniatures games where its have your power house melee piece rush the enemy and carve them up or you have another piece that has some uber skill making them inpossible to hit with various power ups gained from other nearby characters. I guess what I am trying to say (sheez) is are the rules solid and the character/unit stats well balanced.

Eidt - Just for those who haven't gone on to the Forge World site. Take a gander at the pic's below for the sort of stuff they support the game with. Crazy prices also attached but it is outstanding.

 


 


 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Well. Up until at least maybee 2000 when I stopped collecting Warhammer & 40k stuff, the armies were relatively well set up and there was little of the later problem of potent "character" models taking center stage.

You had alot of freedom to set up your armies as you pleased, and you could either focus on one strategy of say a few heavy hitters, or lots of lesser units. 40k though was mostly about the long range battles. But Emperor save you if some melee specialists got in close. Most of the Tyranid and some of the Eldar were particularly adept at playing can-opener... ow... medic!

It though was usually best to field a mix of units as you never knew what the enemy might toss at you. Flexibility here helped immensely. Though personally I loved the idea of fielding only a force of Terminators.

As for strategies and playing them out. Thats really dependant on the players and the size of the battle field. I tended to view most of the fights as starting up just after alot of maneuvering had come to a close to get us to that point. But with a bigger play area or incorperating the Planetary Empires expansion, more sweeping strategies are possible. ( Wherein I usually get pulverized. )

2nd ed 40k also came with a set of Mission Cards which added various twists and objectives to the battle. Dont know if those survived to later editions.
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Slev Sleddeddan
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Chimaera wrote:
Leaving some of the other issues aside for now. I was wondering how the game actually played out. For example lets look at the newly released Space Wolves. They are made up of various elements. Do these elements really make a difference e.g. do the more mobile Sky Claws play like a very mobile unit/cavalry.


Exactly.

Every unit is classed as one of five types: HQ (a commander, possibly with a bodyguard), Elite (really good, high point value, often with special rules), Troops (bulk units of all stripes), Fast Attack (fast moving, like knights in a fantasy game, often nasty up close), and Heavy Support (heavy armour and/or guns).

Each category has minimum and maximum selections. Each unit has it's own strength/weakness in the game.

Example: SPace Marine Tactical Squad.
Strength in that it's an excellent all-rounder.
Weakness in that, as Space Marines, they have a high point value

Example: Ork Slugga Boyz
Strength in brutal close combat abilities, large unit size and low points cost.
Weakness in their near-total lack of ranged combat and armour.

These two units, the Marines try to keep the Orks at arm's length & shoot while the Orks try & assault up close.

But, suppose that the Marines are instead using a unit based on assault, like the Sky Claws. As Jump Infantry, they can move very fast, but have a higher point cost still. They WANT to get close to the Orks, and can do so being more manoeuvrable, and so can attack on their own terms.

The Ork player will want some kind of ranged unit to keep the Sky Claws pinned down, and to place assault units supporting each other for a counter-assault, while having his own jump-infantry (Stormboyz) harassing the enemy, who would then react to that, and so on.
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Thanks for the heads up guys. I think I may take the plunge with Assault on Black Reach next month. Alternatively I may buy the rules and have a go with the Space Wolves and Chaos hmmmmmm.

Probably time to take some of my questions over here.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37165
 
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