Kendall Merriman
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I just want to know what you all think of this. The situation:
Player A is in FTL control. Player B gives this person an XO, to get us on the road. Player A uses their first action to activate FTL control. The jump puts the total distance at 4, and new loyalty cards are dealt. Player A (who still has an action from the XO) receives the Sympathizer card. As the humans are doing all right, he is sent to the Resurrection Ship. Now what? Player A technically still has an action... so can he activate the Resurrection Ship now, and hand off the extra loyalty cards, since according to the rules his turn does not end yet (he didn't do step 5 of the revealing steps, as per the rules)?

This should be an easier one (unrelated to the above question):
If an unrevealed Cylon is given an XO, and he reveals, step 5 says his turn ends, but it isn't his turn. Does play resume with the current player drawing a crisis, or does the turn end, without a crisis?

So, any thoughts? I submitted the first one to FFG, I want to see what they say. As for the second, it just seems like the rules are unclear on it.
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Christopher Scatliff
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Pretty sure a newly revealed cylon (sympathizer or not) forfeits any other actions they might have.
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Todd Warnken
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These are covered in the FAQ:


Q: What happens if an unrevealed Cylon is targeted by an "Executive
Order" and reveals himself as his first action.
A: He would be unable to take his second action. (Following the
“Revealed Cylon Players" instructions on page 19, his turn ends
after revealing). The current player then continues his turn.
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Kendall Merriman
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ok, that covers the second one... I was curious about the first more though. He didn't reveal himself as his first action, he was revealed as the sympathizer, through random chance. He doesn't end his turn (according to the rulebook, at least).
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Evgeny Reznikov
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It doesn't matter whether he revealed himself. The situation is virtually identical - he was a cylon after his first action, and before the second.
In essence, the ruling states that the effect of the Executive Order terminates the moment the target no longer qualifies for it. This applies to both cases.
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L. Scott Johnson
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It doesn't seem to apply to both cases. At least not clearly.

The rules are pretty explicit that the sympathizer does NOT do the "End Turn" step given in the "Revealed Cylon Player" rule:

Under Sympathizer (p. 19):

"If [sympathizer = Cylon] then this player ... follows the game turn steps described ... (except for steps 4 and 5.)"

Those steps are:

4: Receive Super Crisis.
5: End Turn.

The sympathizer is not a "real" Cylon, so can't play Super Crisis cards. Check. No confusion there.

But then there's 5. Why explicitly specify that the Sympathizer Cylon player does not do this step if he does do this step?
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Kendall Merriman
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Rulemonger wrote:
But then there's 5. Why explicitly specify that the Sympathizer Cylon player does not do this step if he does do this step?


That was my thought too, and why I was asking. Not that this should come up more then once in a few hundred games.
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Rulemonger wrote:
But then there's 5. Why explicitly specify that the Sympathizer Cylon player does not do this step if he does do this step?


I think the rule was written assuming the sleeper phase occured at the end of the turn during the prepare for jump phase. They did not consider the sleeper phase happening in the middle of the turn with the current player getting the sympathizer card and becoming a Cylon.

In my mind the intent is clear, the turn should end if the current player becomes a Cylon sympathizer.
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The "Revealed Cylon Players" were written to handle a situation when a Cylon reveals on their own turn. the turn has been completed in full because the action was the thing that revealed them and the Crisis step is skipped for revealed Cylons.

The sympathizer rules were written because a sympathizer is revealed as a function of the game (traveling 4+ distance vs a player action) so it is not handled exactly the same. Instead of giving you a clear example, they direct you to the one not written for the situation and cut off the steps that don't apply. And also it is not likely that the Sympathizer turn when this all happens, which is why you skip the "end turn" step as you let the turn finish naturally.

So this created confusion so the question was asked in the third case - a Cylon revealing as a result of an XO. The answer again directs you back to the steps for revealing as if it is your turn. You "end turn" for your actions (meaning you lose the spare action from XO), but the current player's turn carries on, namely, the Crisis steps.
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Sure. I can see that line of reasoning. But I can also see the line of reasoning that "The rules are explicit, and no correction has been issued, so play it by the rules".
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You can play however you want, we're not the game police here.
All we do is try and give you the answer that the designer would give under the circumstances, to keep the play of the game "as intended".
 
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Based on every other case where you become a Cylon in the middle of an XO (reveal as one or stop infiltrating in the Pegasus expansion), I would have to believe that the sympathizer does not get a second action (but you would draw a Crisis card as normal, because it wasn't his turn).
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L. Scott Johnson
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Evgeny Reznikov wrote:
All we do is try and give you the answer that the designer would give under the circumstances, to keep the play of the game "as intended".


Yes, that is indeed what we are trying to do.
 
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I think it is covered clearly by the fact that a Cylon cannot be the target of an XO. As the remaining action was granted by an XO, it is forfeited.
 
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Covered, perhaps. But hardly clearly, since the XO targeted a human, making it a legal play.
 
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Rulemonger wrote:
Covered, perhaps. But hardly clearly, since the XO targeted a human, making it a legal play.

Again, we have confusion over the rules. A question was asked, an answer was given. A Cylon that reveals as a result of an XO on the first action does not get his 2nd action. So if you are a hidden CYlon and you get the target, make sure you get your "human" action in before you reveal so that you can use both actions. Otherwise it is lost.

So what is the continued confusion?
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Rulemonger wrote:
Covered, perhaps. But hardly clearly, since the XO targeted a human, making it a legal play.

Again, we have confusion over the rules. A question was asked, an answer was given. A Cylon that reveals as a result of an XO on the first action does not get his 2nd action. So if you are a hidden CYlon and you get the target, make sure you get your "human" action in before you reveal so that you can use both actions. Otherwise it is lost.

So what is the continued confusion?


The question that doesn't involve the reveal action, but rather involves a sympathizer.

Answers have been given above, but they all seem to be just unofficial suppositions.

Correct suppositions, perhaps, but guesses nonetheless since the rules and the FAQs are at best ambiguous on the subject (and at worst explicitly worded with the result that the sympathizer's "turn" on XO actions does not end and that he or she may take his or her second XO action).

I'll be playing with the house rule that the sympathizer does not get the second action, but I'll do so with the knowledge that it is just a house rule, so far.
 
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Nor does a leader's turn explicitly end as a result of revealing, but Corey still said that once he becomes a Cylon, he can't take a second action. Same thing really.
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So the question is in the case that a player that is XOed uses his first action which causes the game to go to Sleeper Agent phase and he is the one that becomes the Sympathizer, what happens to his second action?

Well the rules say that a revealed Cylon turn ends when he reveals on his own turn.

The FAQ says that a revealed Cylon does not get to use the second action of a XO if he reveals on someone else's turn. His portion of the turn ends and the rest of the turn carries on.

The situation is we have a revealed Cylon wanting to use his second action of an XO. It seems to me that the FAQ already addresses this officially. I am not sure how that is suppostion on our part.

A Sympathizer is a revealed Cylon. It matters not how he was revealed, he is revealed. So based on the FAQ, he can't use the 2nd action. It reverts back to the original player to finish out the turn.

What am I missing that this is not officially answered at this point?
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
So the question is in the case that a player that is XOed uses his first action which causes the game to go to Sleeper Agent phase and he is the one that becomes the Sympathizer, what happens to his second action?

Well the rules say that a revealed Cylon turn ends when he reveals on his own turn.


And that a sympathizer explicitly does not do the "turn ends" step.

Quote:
The FAQ says that a revealed Cylon does not get to use the second action of a XO if he reveals on someone else's turn. His portion of the turn ends and the rest of the turn carries on.


Yes, "if he reveals as his first action".

It is plausible that the question arises in the following way:

Since the rules say that taking the reveal action ends the turn (in contrast to the sympathizer), and ending the turn on your XO action when it isn't your turn isn't what was meant, you do the "end turn" part (which is part of the "reveal action" but explicitly not part of the "sympathizer") in the natural way: rather than actually ending the turn, you instead end the XO'd player's XO'ing.

Quote:
The situation is we have a revealed Cylon wanting to use his second action of an XO. It seems to me that the FAQ already addresses this officially. I am not sure how that is suppostion on our part.

A Sympathizer is a revealed Cylon. It matters not how he was revealed, he is revealed. So based on the FAQ, he can't use the 2nd action. It reverts back to the original player to finish out the turn.

What am I missing that this is not officially answered at this point?


The text of the FAQ as quoted above isn't worded the way you say it is. I'm working with the text quoted above: "Q: What happens if an unrevealed Cylon is targeted by an "Executive Order" and reveals himself as his first action."

If there is more recent text of the FAQ that covers sympathizer revealing as well, then there you go.

As it is, the the FAQ tweak for reveal-action Cylons is necessary to explain what "turn ends" means for XO'ing, and that sympathizer Cylons, having no "turn ends" bit to worry about, don't necessarily fall under that umbrella (although it is easy to speculate that they do, just as it is easy to specualte that they do not given the explicit part in the rules that says not to do the "end turn" bit).
 
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Rulemonger wrote:
The text of the FAQ as quoted above isn't worded the way you say it is. I'm working with the text quoted above: "Q: What happens if an unrevealed Cylon is targeted by an "Executive Order" and reveals himself as his first action."

If there is more recent text of the FAQ that covers sympathizer revealing as well, then there you go.

As it is, the the FAQ tweak for reveal-action Cylons is necessary to explain what "turn ends" means for XO'ing, and that sympathizer Cylons, having no "turn ends" bit to worry about, don't necessarily fall under that umbrella (although it is easy to speculate that they do, just as it is easy to specualte that they do not given the explicit part in the rules that says not to do the "end turn" bit).

I am going off the text as you have quoted.

You have a player that was XO'd. He resolved his first action. His action ultimately revealed him as a Cylon. He didn't know he was a Cylon, but now he is. As a revealed Cylon, he cannot take his second action on the XO and the turn reverts back to the original player.

How does this not fall under the FAQ?
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
I am going off the text as you have quoted.

You have a player that was XO'd. He resolved his first action. His action ultimately revealed him as a Cylon. He didn't know he was a Cylon, but now he is. As a revealed Cylon, he cannot take his second action on the XO and the turn reverts back to the original player.

How does this not fall under the FAQ?


It is easy to see how it might not fall under the FAQ: The player did not reveal himself "as" his action. He didn't take the "reveal" action. He took the FTL action. He jumped "as" his action.

If you are committed to not seeing how it could possibly be read another way, then you won't.

Anyway, the issue seems to be fully covered in this thread.
 
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Rulemonger wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
I am going off the text as you have quoted.

You have a player that was XO'd. He resolved his first action. His action ultimately revealed him as a Cylon. He didn't know he was a Cylon, but now he is. As a revealed Cylon, he cannot take his second action on the XO and the turn reverts back to the original player.

How does this not fall under the FAQ?


It is easy to see how it might not fall under the FAQ: The player did not reveal himself "as" his action. He didn't take the "reveal" action. He took the FTL action. He jumped "as" his action.

If you are committed to not seeing how it could possibly be read another way, then you won't.

Anyway, the issue seems to be fully covered in this thread.

OK, I am stubborn, I get that.

I guess I see the focus of the question as "what happens to the second action" and think the answer we have already applies.

Perhaps your focused too much on the "revealing cylon" aspect and don't think it is applicable to a "sympathizer."

The main point then should be - why does a Sympathizer get treated more special than a Cylon who deliberately reveals? Why does the Sympathizer get to take that second action even though he is now a Cylon?

In that light, I don't think there is any support to say he keeps the 2nd action. It goes against all the other rules in how revelaed Cylons are treated.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

The main point then should be - why does a Sympathizer get treated more special than a Cylon who deliberately reveals? Why does the Sympathizer get to take that second action even though he is now a Cylon?

In that light, I don't think there is any support to say he keeps the 2nd action. It goes against all the other rules in how revelaed Cylons are treated.


Okay, I think I agree that the second action is forfeit, but here's why I think there's some confusion: when a Cylon is revealed, the turn ends (even if that was an XO). However, when the Sympathizer is revealed (as part of the Sleeper Phase) the turn explicitly doesn't end. So what does that mean for the Sympathizer? It's obvious that a revealed Cylon doesn't get it because the entire turn ends when they reveal -- whether it was their turn or not -- which isn't the case for a Sympathizer.

But I agree that any sort of Cylon cannot receive the benefits of an XO action, and so that should mean that they lose that action.
 
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Daimbert wrote:
Okay, I think I agree that the second action is forfeit, but here's why I think there's some confusion: when a Cylon is revealed, the turn ends (even if that was an XO). However, when the Sympathizer is revealed (as part of the Sleeper Phase) the turn explicitly doesn't end. So what does that mean for the Sympathizer? It's obvious that a revealed Cylon doesn't get it because the entire turn ends when they reveal -- whether it was their turn or not -- which isn't the case for a Sympathizer.

The highlighted parts are not correct. The TURN does not end if it is currenlty someone else's turn. The revealed Cylon's portion of the turn ends and it reverts back to the current player to take over and do anything else remaining - which is do the Crisis resolution.

Putting step 5 in the rules is the issue. It was redundant and the fact that a Cylon can reveal at other times, through an XO and the Sympathizer phase, is what causes these messy interpretations.
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