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Subject: Longer game Variant (with no final battle) rss

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David desJardins
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Not bad. I think that some of the missions are simply too difficult for this variant, though, as they can almost always be disrupted if revealed:

His Dark Throne
To Find Them All
Minas Morgul Kept At Bay

I would expect that if one side has one of these missions and the other doesn't, the latter will almost always win.
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Michele Nesci
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If I remember the rules correctly there is no absolute definition of "perilious" i.e. it depends on the wisdom of the hero what is perilious to them. This would make it a problem to adjudicate whether some of the missions are fulfilled.

I also find it unfair that the winner of the dominance race just has to stop while the other side catches up. IMO to catch up they should actually do it rather than just wait. Here's a rule proposal:

When a marker is in the finale state any effect that would move that marker causes all other markers that are not also in a finale state to move backwards by as much as the affected marker would have moved forward.
A marker is considered in a finale state when it is on the last space of the track. Moreover if all three shadow markers reached the "the shadow falls" space they are all considered to be in a finale state.

I agree that the revised missions also need some tuning too.
 
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Michele Nesci
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MrSkeletor wrote:

Basically the idea is to stop mission blocking by just parking monsters/minions the heros need to kill into perilous locations and thus making them nearly impossible to kill (since Sauron can elect to chose peril over combat.) Its the same with heroes and havens.
Havens and permanent perilous locations are easy, but as you just pointed out influenced based perilous locations are not. I'll have to think of something.

An idea might be the following: allow the heroes to fight if they want. Sauron can still choose monster or peril but if he picks peril if a minion or monster is in the space the hero can fight them (maybe that could count as the exploration). Would that make minions too vulnerable? In any case this would solve the "except perilious" issue because that tactic no longer works.
Maybe the peril was intended to work as a shield for minions in the intent of the designers; I am not sure since I don't have much experience with the game yet.

MrSkeletor wrote:
Rad wrote:
I also find it unfair that the winner of the dominance race just has to stop while the other side catches up. IMO to catch up they should actually do it rather than just wait.



It depends on how things play out - the advantage of being in the Finale state is it allows you to win the game. If this is happening within a few turns of hitting the Finale it's fine. If on the other hand the games end up typically going another half a dozen or so turns you are right, the dominance race has become a non issue and something will need to be done. Maybe a reward for hitting it first?

Quote:
Here's a rule proposal:
When a marker is in the finale state any effect that would move that marker causes all other markers that are not also in a finale state to move backwards by as much as the affected marker would have moved forward.
A marker is considered in a finale state when it is on the last space of the track. Moreover if all three shadow markers reached the "the shadow falls" space they are all considered to be in a finale state.


Wont this stop the hero marker as soon as Sauron hits the Finale, since that is the only marker for the FP that can go backwards?

The point is that if Sauron has plots that keep advancing it, those plots now slow down (or pull back) the hero marker instead of having no effect. To catch up the heroes must destroy the plots that keep Sauron's top marker going forward, exactly in the same way they have to do during the game.
The rule still needs work in the "shadow falls" case, but in the case of a single shadow marker reaching the finale the intent is to keep things going as if the track were infinite.
During game, if the Sauron marker goes more than 2 spaces forward it gains ground over the heroes but if it advances only by one or zero then the hero marker will go faster. The rule just recreates this after the end of the track is reached.
 
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Paul Leigh
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Maybe the problem with perilous locations could be resolved this way.

Monsters in permanently perilous locations do not count when counting monsters for the Minas Morgul at bay card. Monsters in temporarily perilous locations (with threat tokens on them) will be counted as normal.

This way, heroes would have the added hassle of removing the threat before they can reliably kill monsters on perilous locations. Tricky, but not impossible and should work smoothly.

The suggested variant by Mr Skeletor above is excellent, despite a few teething problems. I will certainly give it a go.
 
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Jim Cote
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MrSkeletor wrote:
3. Monster Tokens are not recycled - once they are removed they are put in the box (Stops "Against the Shadow" from going on indefinitely, just in case.)

I thought this was normal. Is there some game effect that puts discarded monster tokens back into play?
 
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Paul Leigh
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Those adjusted rules sound emminently workable. Still, the proof is in the pudding! I will give them a bash and see how we get on.

I really like MEQ but just like the OP, felt there was something not quite right with the endgame. The conclusion of missions and potential rumble with the nazgul in the original game are not ideal.

 
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Michele Nesci
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That is a definite step forward; great idea!
under these rules though the plots become completely irrelevant when Sauron reaches the finale. How does that change the gameplay?
 
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Everett Scheer
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MrSkeletor wrote:

2. If the Heroes are in the Finale state, they get to choose instead of Sauron to take Peril or Fight a monster if they have a choice (seems the easiest way to stop minion/monster hiding.)


I'd prefer:
2. If the Heroes are in the Finale state and face a peril, they can choose to combat a monster or minion after the peril.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Or simply:

Once Heroes are in the finale, they may initiate combat with a monster or minion of their choice during their Explore step.

So, they go into the space and Sauron chooses what they encounter, but if they win that fight (or survive the peril) they get to continue fighting other things in that space.
 
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Michele Nesci
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I really like it! If I can make one last suggestion I would allow Sauron to get 1 influence from more than one marker if more than one they reaches the finale or with every one if they all pass "the shadow falls" space. The intended effects are these:
* If Sauron gets to the finale by pushing all 3 markers trough the shadow falls space he ca nget the bonus instead of waiting until one of them passes through the finale space
* All plots are relevant, not jst the ones about the top marker, although if a marker is still behind they have a lower priority
* The "move 1 plot marker forward" that happens when heroes rest or heal is meaningful because if the last marker reaches "the shadow falls" then all marker movement results inextra influence.

Hope this helps and again, great work!
 
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Fred Heis
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Kind of off topic, as a lot of good work has gone on here to work through a potentially messy conclusion - i.e. after 3+ hours all being decided by one fight! I very much agree with the original OP, but it has given a different thought.

If both sides are equal at Finale how about each side secretly draws a 2nd mission card, and if only one side has achieved the condition, then victory. Otherwise play until one side is successful. If both achieve it in the same turn then draw again (Lawks - hopefully not ad nauseum).

It would be a better reflection of secondary win conditions and people could keep one eye on other possible goals whilst pursuing their main mission strategy.

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David desJardins
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Terraformer wrote:
Kind of off topic, as a lot of good work has gone on here to work through a potentially messy conclusion - i.e. after 3+ hours all being decided by one fight!


I bet the inhabitants of Middle Earth were even more upset at having thousands of years of history decided by one fight!!
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Stephen Sekela
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Terraformer wrote:
Kind of off topic, as a lot of good work has gone on here to work through a potentially messy conclusion - i.e. after 3+ hours all being decided by one fight!


I bet the inhabitants of Middle Earth were even more upset at having thousands of years of history decided by one fight!!


Isn't that ultimately what it came down to, though, in the actual story as written by Tolkein? (i.e. the fist-fight/wrestling match between Gollum and Frodo inside the volcano)

(I don't mean to imply that such a "final struggle" makes for good game play)

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Jim Cote
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Gollum would likely have suffered hot lava death even if he had managed to keep the ring. sauron
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Michele Nesci
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Zordren wrote:

Isn't that ultimately what it came down to, though, in the actual story as written by Tolkein? (i.e. the fist-fight/wrestling match between Gollum and Frodo inside the volcano)

(I don't mean to imply that such a "final struggle" makes for good game play)


Not really as none of the fighters wanted to destroy the ring. The fate of middle Earth was decided by the fact that Gollum tripped.
Or, you might give some credit to everybody who worked to bring the ring there in the first place

just an oddball idea: what if one had a Frodo miniature that starts travelling from the shire to mount doom? This would be a "forget the missions: it is too late for them now". Gandalf warned Frodo but Sauron is aware of him!
This is almost as complex as designing another game though.shake
 
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Paul Leigh
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ummm

Where has that nice Mr Skeletor gone?
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Kevin
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trouvere wrote:
ummm

Where has that nice Mr Skeletor gone?


To Fortress: Ameritrash.
 
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Josh Davis
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I'm confused... I just got this game and would like a variant making the game longer, but I don't see it. Did the post get removed or something?
 
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Paul Leigh
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The OP has left BGG.

Shame, as the variant he suggested looked pretty good.
 
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Kevin
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JeiWo wrote:
I'm confused... I just got this game and would like a variant making the game longer, but I don't see it. Did the post get removed or something?


Yes; MrSkeletor deleted all of his content when he either (a) left in a hissy-fit or (b) was passive-aggressively forced out by wussy-yet-draconian forum moderation. Depending on who you believe.

Anyway, his game variant is here:

Link.

I haven't tried it.

Edit: fix link.
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Josh Davis
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Thanks! Not sure when I'll be able to try it out (or if I'll need to, since we didn't have to do a final battle last time).
 
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