Andy Bredin
United States
Holt
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Ok so I have only had this game for a few weeks now.. and I've played 3 times. I've been stuck with the rogue twice and the hunter once. I generally enjoy the game.. but playing with people that are new to it.. I've noticed a few things that generally irk both me and them.. and I'm considering taking on some house rules to hopefully avoid that in the future. If anyone has tried anything like what I'm going to suggest, or has any general thoughts on them.. I'd love the advice prior to actually doing it. Right now I just have the rogue expansion.. but in next play I'll have the pally, druid and shaman as well.

Anyway, this is what I was thinking:

1. 3 actions per turn. You would not be able to do the same action twice per turn, but if your just standing in a city.. you could make use of more then one resource (grab a quest, Auction house something, heal.. on your turn.. for example). The reason I would want to go with this one, is cause my friends loath going back to town.. and we almost never do it, simply cause you have to watch 3 people go.. and work on their quests.. get loot, level up etc.. while all you get to is pick up a card.. that you might not even want. We almost NEVER auction house anything. I think this will make towns a lot more useful. Also, we have used about 2 of the discovery tokens in 3 games.. so I think people will make use of those as well.

2. If all you do is fight on your turn, you get a free re-roll of your energy dice. Several times now, I myself and other have been stuck on a level up spot, and because of low attack (namely hunter) I would have to roll like a 5 or 6 just to have a shot winning the fight. One time I actually did.. and the encounter rolled a sword.. canceling combat (ARRRGGG). Meanwhile I have a grand total of 1 energy to work with... and only 2-3 energy cards. I just think if all your doing is fighting.. you should have a better shot at having more energy.

3. The global quest idea posted here. I find that whoever gets the quests that are like.. go here.. do this.. or the +1 attack quest.. basically pulls away very quickly. I think making quests global would make it more of a race... and add something to the game.

With this I'd keep several global quests.. and maybe 1 private quest per player. I'd probly do the draw 2 to start.. pick one. Which would be the same on picking up a quest.

4. To the death battles. I find it unbelievable that a character can travel, learn skills and win a combat in one round.. but a character that only chooses to fight.. gets only one shot. I'd like to play where a character can CHOOSE before combat starts if its to the death. If so, the run away option would be there.. but they would have to roll a 5 or 6 and give up their attack if they don't succeed. More then likely I'd incorporate this into pvp fighting as well. However I would require energy be rerolled each round of combat. Also skills would be one round only.

5. Can only turn items your currently using to potions. Basically I hate the idea of being able to eat a sword for mana or health. I find it silly.. and they should have just made more potion rewards.. BUT in some cases it makes sense in the game I suppose. However I am a fan of the "kill the mage with the badass armor I want" tactic. And in the current rules.. if a pvp fight, they can drag you around the board.. only to swallow the armor at the last second.. and screw you. This is lame. If your going to swallow a sword mid combat.. you should have to at least be wearing it.. and suffer the other consequences (aka less armor now, or less atk).

6. Valor points for pvp. There are quests where you get rewarded for killing stuff near level up areas.. accomplishing two birds with one stone.. why not make pvp the same way. If you get a pvp quest.. you can do double dutie as well. I'd do 1 point per kill. With the "to the death" method.. you wouldn't have to worry about kill stealing that much either.

I'm very used to Runebound.. which you can probably tell based on my rules.. but I find the 3 phases in that game to be really annoying.. and very slanted to the monsters/defender. I like the combat in this game much better.. and how it plays fast and the loot is scaled on the thing you fight. The overlords having 1 health baffles me though.. if anyone has a variant for creatures having actual hp amounts.. I'd love to play with that as well.

All input is valued, thanks
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
1. 3 actions per turn. You would not be able to do the same action twice per turn, but if your just standing in a city.. you could make use of more then one resource (grab a quest, Auction house something, heal.. on your turn.. for example). The reason I would want to go with this one, is cause my friends loath going back to town.. and we almost never do it, simply cause you have to watch 3 people go.. and work on their quests.. get loot, level up etc.. while all you get to is pick up a card.. that you might not even want. We almost NEVER auction house anything. I think this will make towns a lot more useful. Also, we have used about 2 of the discovery tokens in 3 games.. so I think people will make use of those as well.

This probably needs a bit more tinkering, it could become overpowered quickly. Basically the way my group plays it is that combat against PvE encounters will be a fight to the death/until cancellation. I'd agree about allowing people who are in cities to do more actions in that space though--maybe allowing them to use two resources, so that someone could AH without wasting their turn and getting an item they dislike. (or giving them the choice between 2 items for AH)

Quote:
2. If all you do is fight on your turn, you get a free re-roll of your energy dice. Several times now, I myself and other have been stuck on a level up spot, and because of low attack (namely hunter) I would have to roll like a 5 or 6 just to have a shot winning the fight. One time I actually did.. and the encounter rolled a sword.. canceling combat (ARRRGGG). Meanwhile I have a grand total of 1 energy to work with... and only 2-3 energy cards. I just think if all your doing is fighting.. you should have a better shot at having more energy.

More energy isn't the problem so much as more reroll. My group and I play with PvE battles to death (including boss level-ups) and also ranged characters get 1 free re-roll, since they have much suckier chances of winning in combat compared to melee characters (and generally less health too). So far we haven't run into any balance problems, though I anticipate that in some cases it'll be wise not to give ranged characters free re-roll. But forcing PvE battles to go until the end means ranged characters still have to watch their health, so I think that's pretty balanced.

Quote:
3. The global quest idea posted here. I find that whoever gets the quests that are like.. go here.. do this.. or the +1 attack quest.. basically pulls away very quickly. I think making quests global would make it more of a race... and add something to the game.

With this I'd keep several global quests.. and maybe 1 private quest per player. I'd probly do the draw 2 to start.. pick one. Which would be the same on picking up a quest.

Yeap, keep players nearby to each other so there's more chance for PvP conflict and more uncertainty as to what each player will do. Best house rule my group ever played with. Now the game is faster, more fun, and full of PvP (which is the most dynamic aspect of the game so far anyway).

Quote:
4. To the death battles. I find it unbelievable that a character can travel, learn skills and win a combat in one round.. but a character that only chooses to fight.. gets only one shot. I'd like to play where a character can CHOOSE before combat starts if its to the death. If so, the run away option would be there.. but they would have to roll a 5 or 6 and give up their attack if they don't succeed. More then likely I'd incorporate this into pvp fighting as well. However I would require energy be rerolled each round of combat. Also skills would be one round only.

I would limit the energy to one die roll for balance, but I would allow the battle to go until death in PvE. That seems fair.

Quote:
5. Can only turn items your currently using to potions. Basically I hate the idea of being able to eat a sword for mana or health. I find it silly.. and they should have just made more potion rewards.. BUT in some cases it makes sense in the game I suppose. However I am a fan of the "kill the mage with the badass armor I want" tactic. And in the current rules.. if a pvp fight, they can drag you around the board.. only to swallow the armor at the last second.. and screw you. This is lame. If your going to swallow a sword mid combat.. you should have to at least be wearing it.. and suffer the other consequences (aka less armor now, or less atk).

Gotta disagree with you here. I think having items that can be used as potions or for the regular ability broadens the tactical and strategic options of the game. Otherwise everyone could anticipate how you'd use your items, making the game more boring and (in PvE) unbalanced. Loot distribution isn't always even, and being able to discard useless loot as potions really helps poor spellcasters who only have 1 default attack for the first 2-3 levels.

Quote:
6. Valor points for pvp. There are quests where you get rewarded for killing stuff near level up areas.. accomplishing two birds with one stone.. why not make pvp the same way. If you get a pvp quest.. you can do double dutie as well. I'd do 1 point per kill. With the "to the death" method.. you wouldn't have to worry about kill stealing that much either.

Heartily agreed. With the house rule allowing PvE combats to end in one turn, it would make sense to allow PvP to be worth more points.

Good thoughts! Keep it up! We'll make this game faster and more fun yet.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Bredin
United States
Holt
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I'm unsure how you think the 3 turns will be overpowered. If everyone gets three actions.. it'd be fair. It would just allow you to do a lot more on your turn if you couldn't make use of every phase. Essentially at the moment.. this game truly favors the person that has to move a few spaces every turn and then fight. If you can accomplish quests simply by moving short spaces around the board.. you basically win. But if your stuck trying to complete one particular hard thing.. and moving or healing does you nothing.. why not be able to take advantage of the book, the discovery token.. and fighting?

As for the eating loot.. I'm not dismissing the idea completely.. I'm just saying you have to actually be using at the time you can make use of it.. once again promoting people to hack each other to pieces for each others loot.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The problem with 3 actions is:
-longer wait for other players
-could potentially unhinge balance of the game (i.e. someone could make so much progress towards a goal that other players are powerless to stop it, whereas with one action they at least have a chance of anticipating what other players will do, and acting accordingly).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One other thing we should consider is loot. Today a lot of my friends complained they were getting loot meant for other people, with pallies envying the mail gear of casters, and casters desiring the uber cloth armor pallies equipped. What would be a suitable fix?

I think one idea might be to allow people to draw 3 loot items (including the one on the back of the monster fought) and allowing them a choice. It could increase game length, but I doubt it'd upset the balance much, and it might make for a much more satisfying game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Pavitt
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb



An earlier suggestion for Auction houses:

Quote:
... just use some sort of auction house in the cities: Discard a loot card to the auction house and replace it with one from the auction house of the same colour, with maybe 1 card per colour per player starting in the auction house.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The problem is that that takes too long...and it would only be a limited fix for people, unless one was allowed to AH 3-10 items at a time (because that's usually how much useless loot characters acquire).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Pavitt
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You could always let them do it during someone else's turn...

Does it really take that long for someone to swap out an item or two?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No, I meant that it's a slow process of getting an item you want. What we do now is allow people a choice between 2 items when they auction, and they keep the monsters in the deck in the same place, making sure others don't look at it. We also allow auctioning up to 2 items, and the use of 2 resources in a city (except replacing quests, since we have made those shared for everyone).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Pavitt
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Very true.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Bredin
United States
Holt
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Mythdracon... by 3 actions I don't mean 3 turns. On a given players turn they will typically do 3 actions. Move.. discover.. and challenge. On countless occasions when playing with new people... they have moved.. hit a flight path.. used that as their discover and ended in a town.. WITH NOTHING TO DO. This makes them mad.. they have nothing to do in their challenge phase at all. Instead they twiddle their thumbs. This in combination with the fact that if you make use of any city resource on your next turn.. YOUR STUCK IN TOWN AGAIN, ARG! which makes doing anything but staying in the field and leveling up and gathering loot a huge hinderance. I say get rid of the phases... just let people do 3 things.. but you can only do one of any specific action per turn. Move.. potion... discovery token. Discovery token, book, fight. Auction house.. move ... fight. Why should any one character NOT get 3 actions.. while some are very much able to. Also the resources are all useful and very different from each other. If someone pulls ahead.. you can start using more of your actions on discovery tokens to hinder them.. and still be able to gather skills.. but just not move or whatever else you don't care about at the time.

To me, there is just stuff in the game I wouldn't even consider making use of.. unless I use this rule.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Mythdracon... by 3 actions I don't mean 3 turns. On a given players turn they will typically do 3 actions. Move.. discover.. and challenge. On countless occasions when playing with new people... they have moved.. hit a flight path.. used that as their discover and ended in a town.. WITH NOTHING TO DO. This makes them mad.. they have nothing to do in their challenge phase at all. Instead they twiddle their thumbs. This in combination with the fact that if you make use of any city resource on your next turn.. YOUR STUCK IN TOWN AGAIN, ARG! which makes doing anything but staying in the field and leveling up and gathering loot a huge hinderance. I say get rid of the phases... just let people do 3 things.. but you can only do one of any specific action per turn. Move.. potion... discovery token. Discovery token, book, fight. Auction house.. move ... fight. Why should any one character NOT get 3 actions.. while some are very much able to. Also the resources are all useful and very different from each other. If someone pulls ahead.. you can start using more of your actions on discovery tokens to hinder them.. and still be able to gather skills.. but just not move or whatever else you don't care about at the time.

Oh, right. Well if you mean actions, not turns, I agree: for town actions, our house rule is just that we allow 2 actions (i.e. flight + heal, then you can challenge if you end up on a non-town space). That way it doesn't feel wasted when you end your turn in a city. We've seen lots of people auction and heal, and feel satisfied with their turns because they *don't* want combat.

We've also allowed it to be where you must draw a challenge, but if you get an event you can choose whether or not to keep drawing until you find a monster.

With all the new expansions it's actually become harder to find the loot people want, which is making me think of separating color decks into different loot decks....that way the game won't be unbalanced if, say, someone got a massive sword while a spellcaster got a useless mail armor item. On the other hand, that'd make auction house useless....What do you guys think is the best loot fix? Still a bit unsure about this.

Another thing we've done with discovery is separate discoveries into negative and positive (yellow ones go in either depending on their effect--the one that makes people discard a quest is considered negative). People select without looking, but they select from negative and positive. This makes the discoveries more enticing for people because there's more drama when someone says "I want the discovery box please" and people wait to see what that person does with it. In the original game, having one that you were stuck with meant people weren't interested--it could be negative or positive, how would anyone know? Thus they didn't see much use until now, so I'm happy with that fix. It's just loot which is an issue now...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Bredin
United States
Holt
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Yeah I can see the not wanting to fight thing.. but I still think if people are out fighting and getting loot.. etc.. and you don't choose to do that.. you should be able to do something else. I dunno.. thats not a huge deal.. just trying to make it more fair all around.

As for loot.. I was almost thinking the auction house be a free action.. or having 2 or 3 items come up for trade.. just to cycle the deck a bit more (with 4 expansions its getting pretty big) and have a lot better chance of getting something you actually want. After all.. thats what you did in the game.. throw up crap you don't want.. and very likely get something you do.

See I think if you separate the decks into loot types.. no one would ever get something they don't want.. which could be good and bad. I think there is something interesting that you have to deal with.. when you get something like the bear steak.. or a treasure chest.. kind of forces you to get creative. One sort of off topic thing I had considered though.. is separate the piles of monsters in areas where they SHOULD be. All the people I play with have played WoW quite a bit.. so to be in stranglethorn area and get some like defias guy.. or scarlet monastery guys.. its like.. well lame. This probably won't work.. but it could help with loot if it did... since I imagine humanoids give more typical results.. as compared to like beasts.

As for discovery tokens.. I would not do the separate piles. I think this is a bad idea because if you KNOW they picked up a bad token.. and put it right by you.. well jeez.. go around it.. or just don't stop in that space. Also.. if they pick up a good one.. of course they will put it right by them.. so just go get it before their turn comes around. Half the fun of those tokens are that you get to be creative / tricky with them. Even the rules say that you should try and throw people off.. like if another player is around you.. put a bad one by you.. and more than likely they will try and snag it up.. thinking its a good one, and you'll try and get it first. You just lose ALL of that doing separate piles.. and you can really abuse the good ones if your off on your own side of the map. Some of them are like free max item level.. free portal.. steal items.. that beats the hell out of all the other resources on the map...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hm. Good point on the loot decks, but I do think having people get loot they want off the bat without needing to auction it would prevent the imbalance where someone gets a great piece of loot with luck and then just goes around and kills overlords while everyone else auctions so they can get a chance at doing the same thing.

As for discovery tokens, we make it so that you choose the deck under the table, so no one will know if you're picking a bad or good one. They will know that the person who's picking knows, though. So there's some psychological warfare there which makes it more interesting, so I'm intent on keeping that fix.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Martinez
United States
Irving
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
One of the Auction House Action fixes I've used is to allow the player to draw more item cards. As it is, the Auction House action rarely seems worth it. I've used draw 3 item cards at a time as a house rule, but still didn't seem worth it. I feel a player should have a good shot at getting something they want, so I might go up to draw 5, keep 1.

Fighting until victory / defeat isn't a bad idea. It would help to speed up the game a bit and I don't see it as unbalancing. I'll probably give it a shot in my next game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When you draw 5, did you make it so the 4 not chosen remain on the bottom of the deck? The problem is that making item draws that nice begs the question of what to do with AH's--maybe allow auctioning off up to 3 items to pick 3 from 15....Hm.

Also, for fighting until victory: we've allowed players to choose if they want to retreat or keep fighting, and so far it's worked out. People like the flexibility and strategy a lot more.

However, for PvP, we've kept it to one round. The increased rewards for PvP mean that people still fight each other, which is great, because that's one of the most fun parts of the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Martinez
United States
Irving
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
When I allowed the players to draw 3 cards and keep 1 as an Auction House action, I had the 2 passed over cards discarded. (In this case, that meant on top of the deck.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Bredin
United States
Holt
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I think the AH should be 2 or 3. I'd say if you do it as a free action, then go with 2. If you make them use a resource for it.. maybe like 3-4 as using a resource in town basically just sucks under the games rules. Essentially if you do that you can't do anything else.. so you should get some sort of benefit to counteract that.

I plan to make people use an action to use it.. (under my 3 actions a round rule) and make it 3 card to look at. The excess will be discarded. I think 5 is just way to much though... as there are clearly better rewards then others.. and seeing 5 would almost always yield a clearly better reward then others. I dunno.. it could work.. I just think it would be a bit much.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Martinez
United States
Irving
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
5 might be too much, but I think the player should have a decent chance of drawing something they can actually use. When I did 3 cards drawn as an auction action, I still ended up drawing useless cards quite often. Not a big deal, but a bit frustrating sometimes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would go with 5 for AH. The only problem I can see with it is people taking too long to decide which loot item they want, but if the deck has been shuffled right it should only really result in 1 or 2 items that people can use anyway. Besides, if you auction off a lot of items, you'll go through the deck more quickly, so there won't be any shortage of items people need.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Krzysiek N
Poland
flag msg tools
mb
I diged out that topic and I want to share some thoughts. When we play we always use 2 mod's:
1. In a city you have 2 actions
2. We use a global quests. 1 for each player, 1 to global deck for each player. For example if we play 3 ppl then we have 3 quests in the GQD.

First mod make game a bit faster, and cities become visited more often. Second rule create more interaction between players.
This nice and easy mods make WoW:AG a very nice game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.