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Subject: Drakon has disappeared? rss

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Andrea Nand
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I noticed that Drakon 2nd edition (id 1276) has disappeared...
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Robert Stetler
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Explains where one of the games in my collection just disappeared to. Was about to do a mini-audit against the last list download I did to find out what had vanished.

I recently spent several hours syncing my real world collection with my BGG list, as over the years games kept vanishing from the roster as they were rebranded on BGG, and from when I forgot to add the occaissional purchase to BGG. I ending up "rediscovering" almost 5% of my collection - not a trivial number.

I was wondering how long it would be before they'd go out of sync again, having vowed to increase my efforts to keep that from happening. Apparently, not long at all.

Looks like Drakon has been dropped in favor of the third edition listing. Heck, I don't even own the second edition of Drakon - I had to list it as a place holder when the *first* edition got dropped. If they're going to only list one version (having decided they are mostly interchangeable games), they should just drop the edition notation from the listing completely.
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Chris
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Thanks for pointing this out, Andrea.

My take...

What the heck is the point of me adding comments anywhere if they just up and vanish? This really sucks. I know I have this game, I know I added it to 'boardgamegeek', and I know I added a comment to it. Do I have to save my comments offline in order to avoid this? I thought we were done with dropping games off randomly. I used to not bother at all. Now I have to go back to second guessing anytime I add a comment whether I'll be wasting my time since the listing can 'go away' at any time?

(gripe, moan, piss)

There's really no point in adding comments and content if they are just going to drop off without any warning at all.

I'm a happy guy, witness:



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Chris
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Isn't an email sent out when items are set to be merged/deleted? I thought that was the case...And, then, you could copy/merge your content.

If not -- yeah, this definitely SHOULD be something that's done.
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Andrea Nand
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I've emailed an Admin. Let's wait...
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C Lloyd
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Lemur wrote:
Isn't an email sent out when items are set to be merged/deleted? I thought that was the case...And, then, you could copy/merge your content.

If not -- yeah, this definitely SHOULD be something that's done.

Hmm. That's really too bad. I thought older versions were being kept in the database. I really like being able to see what my version looks like, etc. I wish we at least had a version filter if it's the case that these entries are being merged. I hope they're not just being dropped though (along with comments, etc). And in any case, like Chris said, I thought email notifications were sent out when something like this happens? I know I've received them in the past. Very odd.
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C Lloyd
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Looks like Drakon 1st Ed. has disappeared as well. But, Drakon Expansion 1 is still there, which is an expansion to the 2nd edition from what I recall. At least Twilight Imperium still has all three editions (and expansions) in the database. But that makes sense, as the rules are different in the various editions.

Edit: Content from the older versions of Drakon (at least the pictures anyway) have not been merged into the 3rd edition entry as of yet. But images still exist here and forum entries here.
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Robert Stetler
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clloyd09 wrote:
I thought email notifications were sent out when something like this happens? I know I've received them in the past.


I can only think of one time I recieved an email notification for a game listing change, and that I believe was for a game listing split (two editions were decided to be significantly different, and were given their own listings). But several more listings in my collection have vanished over that time. So the emails are at best sporadic.

An email would be nice, but geekmail would be better. My bigger concern is why games are being listed in an edition specific manner, but only the latest edition is listed. Either have a generic listing for all editions, or separate listings for each edition, not some oddball cross of the two. Apart from eliminating confusion, it reduces the chances of past content being lost when earlier versions get dropped.

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Chris
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KGBRadioMoskow wrote:
clloyd09 wrote:
I thought email notifications were sent out when something like this happens? I know I've received them in the past.


I can only think of one time I recieved an email notification for a game listing change, and that I believe was for a game listing split (two editions were decided to be significantly different, and were given their own listings). But several more listings in my collection have vanished over that time. So the emails are at best sporadic.

An email would be nice, but geekmail would be better. My bigger concern is why games are being listed in an edition specific manner, but only the latest edition is listed. Either have a generic listing for all editions, or separate listings for each edition, not some oddball cross of the two. Apart from eliminating confusion, it reduces the chances of past content being lost when earlier versions get dropped.




Yeah - geekmail is what I meant.

Or, s stickied thread that lists everything merged, etc. (with comments locked - so only 'announcements' can be made).
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C Lloyd
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Lemur wrote:
KGBRadioMoskow wrote:
clloyd09 wrote:
I thought email notifications were sent out when something like this happens? I know I've received them in the past.


I can only think of one time I recieved an email notification for a game listing change, and that I believe was for a game listing split (two editions were decided to be significantly different, and were given their own listings). But several more listings in my collection have vanished over that time. So the emails are at best sporadic.

An email would be nice, but geekmail would be better. My bigger concern is why games are being listed in an edition specific manner, but only the latest edition is listed. Either have a generic listing for all editions, or separate listings for each edition, not some oddball cross of the two. Apart from eliminating confusion, it reduces the chances of past content being lost when earlier versions get dropped.




Yeah - geekmail is what I meant.

Or, s stickied thread that lists everything merged, etc. (with comments locked - so only 'announcements' can be made).

Yup, me too. Oops.
Though, technically, I only half mis-spoke, as I get email notifications of my GeekMail. That sounded kinda rules-lawyer-ish, didn't it?
 
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Chris
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Drakon - 2nd Edition (2001)

GameID: 1276 (was)

There are no msgs sent when games 'go away'; there have never been msgs sent when games 'go away'.

I looked under 'Wargames' and couldn't find it there, neither also under 'war games'.

Honestly, this is a bad thing, very unhappy. I hate when I have to question the data at BoardGameGeek.
Like any typical application user I now question all of the data at BoardGameGeek.
I thought we were done with this sort of thing, no, right?
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Chris
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Liumas wrote:
Drakon - 2nd Edition (2001)

GameID: 1276 (was)

There are no msgs sent when games 'go away'; there have never been msgs sent when games 'go away'.

I looked under 'Wargames' and couldn't find it there, neither also under 'war games'.

Honestly, this is a bad thing, very unhappy. I hate when I have to question the data at BoardGameGeek.
Like any typical application user I now question all of the data at BoardGameGeek.
I thought we were done with this sort of thing, no, right?



Well, there *should* be messags when games go away. I think that's just common sense, no?
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Chris
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Lemur wrote:
Well, there *should* be messags when games go away. I think that's just common sense, no?

Sure!

Games should never go away, even more importantly.
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Chris
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Liumas wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well, there *should* be messags when games go away. I think that's just common sense, no?

Sure!

Games should never go away, even more importantly.




I agree with that a little less. Example: new game: Genoa basically replaced the older Traders of Genoa.

I don't think they should have two separate entries -- all the forums/files should be in *one* place.

But, if it WAS set up as two entries initially; and people used that information (and made comments, etc) - they should be notified when the items are merged (so they can update their own records and migrate their comments).

There needs to be a change in thinking: It's no longer BGG's database that they choose to share with users. The database, essentially, belongs to all of us. I've been lobbying for just this for a while.
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Chris
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Lemur wrote:
I agree with that a little less. Example: new game: Genoa basically replaced the older Traders of Genoa.


Traders of Genoa hasn't gone away. The 'default name' is now Genoa, but there was no deletion of anything. Entering 'Traders of Genoa' into a Search still gets you there just fine. The only thing that changed is the 'default name', but the GameID / ObjectID has not changed, no files were deleted, nor any forum posts, links, etc.

This isn't similar at all to what happened here with Drakon, and who knows how many other database entries.

Can someone upload here a fun image of a 'Moving Target', please?
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Chris
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Liumas wrote:
Lemur wrote:
I agree with that a little less. Example: new game: Genoa basically replaced the older Traders of Genoa.


Traders of Genoa hasn't gone away. The 'default name' is now Genoa, but there was no deletion of anything. Entering 'Traders of Genoa' into a Search still gets you there just fine. The only thing that changed is the 'default name', but the GameID / ObjectID has not changed, no files were deleted, nor any forum posts, links, etc.



I wasn't sure about Genoa....I'd said "if" there had been two entries, ultimately, I'd want there to be one entry (which is what there is).

So, basically, here - the main issue is that a second entry was created for Drakon after previous entries existed. Then, after the fact, they deleted older entries - that shouldn't happen without notification; but - ultimately, I'd prefer there to be one entry per game (hell, we should be merging all the Monopoly titles too, no?)
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Chris
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Keep in mind that no merging took place in this case, just deleting. This could have been handled by merging the information.

The 1st edition was merged with the 2nd edition way back - probably 3 years ago (Fall 2006). I think it was all merged with nothing deleted (yet strangely was now called 'Drakon 2nd Edition').

I believe there have been mergings that combined the owners of both games to now own the new entity. When this happened to me it was disconcerting, but it was nice not to lose any data. That should be done here and the default name changed to be 'Drakon'. (note that the files here can't be interchanged between editions.)
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Robert Stetler
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Liumas wrote:
The 1st edition was merged with the 2nd edition way back - probably 3 years ago (Fall 2006). I think it was all merged with nothing deleted (yet strangely was now called 'Drakon 2nd Edition').


Its possible the content was merged, but I'm fairly certain that ownership listings didn't port seemlessly. Because I know I had to re-add Drakon 2nd edition to my list after 1st edition vanished. Which is why there is a sense of deja-vu for this one.
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tim Tim TIm TIM TIMMY!!
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with so many PNP popping up from all of us want to be game designers, i think they should keep all the old games also. I have Drakon 3rd edition, but it was nice checking out the older versions to see how it has grown and changed. This is a bummer, at least merge teh info so it is not lost!
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Tim Mierz
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Agreed that they should've notified owners. Also, how are the Drakons merged but Slide 5/Category 5/6 Nimmt and Incan Gold/Diamant separate? Mysteries of life...
 
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Darren M
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Of all the things that the hierarchy and admins here on BGG choose to do, this issue... destroying comments/ratings/info on games in the BGG database is the most inexcusable and destructive. This site is supposed to be a games database built and contributed to by the community here and as such every comment and user rating put into the database seems to me to be pretty important and not something to be arbitrarily eliminated with a few clicks. You wouldn't destroy every rating and comment for every game on BGG (you would essentially have no meaningful site left) so why choose to do so to any at all.

I remember how when BGG first began and the site was still forming Aldie/Derk said they were practically begging people to write comments about any games they played and to rate them so they could get the concept of a boardgaming community and database off the ground. Now though the emphasis seems to be much more focused on tangential issues... expansion of BGG to RPGGeek/GeekDo and beyond, all the while restructuring the underlying architecture of the website to better cope with those plans for expansion. Some of those changes to the architecture have resulted in reduced usability for users here on BGG.

I realize this site is a business and the livelihoods of Aldie, Derk and others depend on this site expanding and increasing it's revenue flow and enabling this site to grow and appeal to a larger audience. I get that. What I don't get is why they seem to feel that reducing usability on this site and seemingly arbitrarily deleting many users content is considered acceptable and effective at keeping and attracting more users.

They have diminished the advanced game search capabilities on BGG. They continually make decisions to eradicate user data that those users took a lot of time to contribute. They likely wouldn't have placed it there if they knew it would be erased at some time in the future. What would be the point.

The people in charge need to listen carefully and have some deep thoughts about what the users are saying here. Expand the site... do what you can to try and attract a wider group of users with a wider range of interests, but also hear current users who are annoyed and frustrated by changes that effect the integrity and usefulness of the content in this Boardgaming Database.
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The Tak
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It could just be a boo-boo, too


So what's up admins? *gets to downloading a copy of his collection to double check!*
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Simon Lundström
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Seems that this hasn't been replied to or touched by any admins. I discovered some days ago that Drakon had disappeared, and then that it had reappeared as 1e and 2e. However all information that was on the 1276 entry before have been lost. All ratings, reviews, comments and whatnot just poof.

Now we have three entries of Drakon, of which two are virtually emptied, and sadly enough, they are the two oldest versions.

Sigh. I just can't understand this database entry policy. Really, I can't understand it. I see no reason to create one entry for every single box cover of a game. Having version differences noted on each game page, like on RPGgeek is all nice and very welcome, but splitting all the ratings, comments, strategy articles and rules questions for games that are 99% alike? I don't get it. What is this, a site for discussing board games or a site for discussing different versions of board games?
 
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Andrea Nand
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Zimeon wrote:
Seems that this hasn't been replied to or touched by any admins. I discovered some days ago that Drakon had disappeared, and then that it had reappeared as 1e and 2e. However all information that was on the 1276 entry before have been lost. All ratings, reviews, comments and whatnot just poof.


I've sent a PM to three admins, but received no answers.

If someone have other methods to contact them...
 
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Perhaps the person who is deleting Santa's mail is expanding their efforts...
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