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Subject: A Warhammer body built over a M:tG engine. rss

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James Cartwright
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I don't think it seems to matters what type of card game comes out and by which company, they all seem to get compared to Magic the Gathering.
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Geoff ...
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To this seasoned ex-MtG player W:I and Magic share more similarities than differences.
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Nice review. In many ways similar to my thoughts about the game.
It may be a good game. But theme is very loose, while the artwork being good is only a smokescreen for the bareness of the mechanics.
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James Cartwright
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It's a good review but can't really work out whether your saying it's worth buying or not?
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I think you can get a very good idea of the game by going on the FFG website and watching this tutorial:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/warhammer_lcg/...
 
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Gary Bradley
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Rindel wrote:
I don't think it seems to matters what type of card game comes out and by which company, they all seem to get compared to Magic the Gathering.


Which speaks volumes for the genious of design behind Magic. It really is the king of card games, if not of games, period. No accident it is the top-selling CCG by miles and miles. I've played it fairly compulsively for nearly 12 years now and I still get goosepimples at how beautiful and clever the design is and how good the damn game plays.

Lots of game designers obviously feel the same way. It is easy to see echoes of Magic in many many games. In fact, Magic is so well-designed, so brilliant, that many of the basic concepts it uses are now second-nature "standards" for games designers, even if they dont conciously know they are paying hommage to (ripping off?) Magic. It's almost Lord fo the Rings-like in its revered place as defining its genre. Almost every fantasy book I've read since LotR has echoes of that book and reuses many of its basic concepts. Same with (card) games and Magic.

And even just one simple read of the rules for WH:I and a look a few of the cards and you can see plainly the debt this game owes to Magic. And for the record, this game reeks of Magic more than most.
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GaryB wrote:
Rindel wrote:
I don't think it seems to matters what type of card game comes out and by which company, they all seem to get compared to Magic the Gathering.


Which speaks volumes for the genious of design behind Magic. It really is the king of card games, if not of games, period. No accident it is the top-selling CCG by miles and miles. I've played it fairly compulsively for nearly 12 years now and I still get goosepimples at how beautiful and clever the design is and how good the damn game plays.

Lots of game designers obviously feel the same way. It is easy to see echoes of Magic in many many games. In fact, Magic is so well-designed, so brilliant, that many of the basic concepts it uses are now second-nature "standards" for games designers, even if they dont conciously know they are paying hommage to (ripping off?) Magic. It's almost Lord fo the Rings-like in its revered place as defining its genre. Almost every fantasy book I've read since LotR has echoes of that book and reuses many of its basic concepts. Same with (card) games and Magic.

And even just one simple read of the rules for WH:I and a look a few of the cards and you can see plainly the debt this game owes to Magic. And for the record, this game reeks of Magic more than most.


Wow, Magic sounds great!
Oh, wait, I 've played it and it isn't shake...
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This review, even were I not a fan of the game, seems badly off in a number of points. The theme matches very well (I've gone around on this with Mr. Dowd in the past, he seems to have unusual needs when it comes to theme-matching) actually. The game is more different than similar to Magic: the Gathering (thankfully). And finally, his contention that "The rules aren't much to write home about" seems to badly miss the coolest part of the game's design - the incredibly cool way that playing your units actually governs your economy while cleverly lending the game a unique RTS feel - something not captured or recreated in any other game.

Not the most accurate of reviews but an honest effort at least. ::: shrug :::
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Ronny Heinz
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MtG was a good game, but isn't anymore. There are so many games out there, which take the basics of MtG and enhance them considerably (WoW, Wakfu, The Spoils). Yes, MtG is the father of most of the CCGs, but it forgot to evolve with the time.
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Steve Wagner
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Firepot wrote:
MtG was a good game, but isn't anymore. There are so many games out there, which take the basics of MtG and enhance them considerably (WoW, Wakfu, The Spoils). Yes, MtG is the father of most of the CCGs, but it forgot to evolve with the time.


Obviously, you haven't played with the new sets. Magic has evolved very well, imo. WoW was a good game, but not as great as Magic.

Back to the subject, W:I takes some parts of Magic, but it's a different game in many ways. It is very similar to a RTS, as has been stated. Your units can fight for you, or they can build up your empire and stay home to defend.
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Ronny Heinz
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The first and last set I played was Shards of Alara. As I played a bit already before, I didn't see much change. The fact that you can loose because you don't get terrains, is and will always be the major drawback of the game.

For me W:I is more an aggregation of CoC and AGoT. As Magic was the first game of it's kind, there will always some influence of it in the newer games.
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Michael Jordal
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I see some similarities to Magic, but mostly in the fact that it is a CCG. I think it is vastly different.
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Ronny Heinz
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W:I is an LCG, so no similarity there with Magic. You could argue that an LCG is another form of CCG, but it is not, as you don't collect. You buy what you need.
 
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While don't agree with a decent chunk of what Mike has postulated here, I want to clarify that I appreciate his efforts in writing this review - obviously there is plenty of room for differing opinions. Mike, I want to clarify that I didn't mean my comments (written above) in a snarky way. I just don't agree with a few of your conclusions about the game. Hope that makes sense?
 
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James Cartwright
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I haven't got or played the game yet but I think it looks different enough from Magic that I should enjoy it.

I got into playing Magic in Alpha and Beta and then got out of it several years later. I've been in and out ever since but I've finally given up on it as I've had enough of all the expansions and standard tournament changes.

I've now gotten into other card games that are as far from Magic as I can get such as Ophidian 2350 and Conan ccg.

I like the idea of the LCG and nearly picked up the Cthulhu one.
 
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Chris Alfaro
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I am going to have to agree with wytefang as I have a hard time seeing how WH:I is extremely similar to MtG. I don't play MtG anymore, but I used to play quite extensively in my middle school days before I learned about miniature gaming.

MtG is a really fun game, but the strategy, to me, comes more from the deck building than from how you actually play your cards during the game. Granted, there are a few things like when to play instants and the like, but other than that small amount of timing there really isn't any tough decisions (not talking about hardcore tournament play, just friendly games).

WH:I however has a similar spread of card types as MtG, but they completely alter your gameplay depending on where exactly they are played. Some cards are "no-brainers" as they only give a special ability when in a zone, but other than that it is up to the player to make sure they are drawing enough cards and pulling enough resource tokens a turn. Every time something new comes out it is inevitably compared to the reigning king it's respective field (think WoW for MMOs). However, I think that with time WH:I will become a much deeper game than MtG.

One point I do agree with Mike about is how the theme of certain cards ties in with their abilities. Some of the cards are very abstract in how they perform compared to their TT counterpart. I would like to see more of a thematic connection there, but I guess it does keep things fresh and new since there really aren't any preconceptions on how certain new cards should act.

I also agree with you about the art. There was some great looking original art on some of the cards, but also some horrible art. The good looking stuff wasn't exactly up to the normal GW standards, but it is about what I expect from FFG. To me the artist who does the almost CG like images needs to be fired. I can't remember any of the specific cards he did, but they look terrible and don't fit the warhammer look. Of course the recycled GW art looks fantastic as usual.

Overall, interesting review, thanks for sharing.
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James Cartwright
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I will! make up my own mind

However most reviews give a definate yes or no as to if the game is good or not, your review is more of a 'I think I'll like it more in the future'

I think I'll be okay with a small card pool as I'll probably only play it casually anyway and it seems like it wont b long before the other card packs will be released.
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Nathan Baumbach
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I'll say it shares a lot of traits with a lot of good CCGs.

If anyone actually remembers, there was a CCG called Guardians, with a base that evolved and was slowly destroyed by the enemy to win. This game has that component.

Magic is unique in that it took a system that worked in RPGs (mana pools) and worked it out to work in card format. And tapping X to get Y resources to bring out a card is something Magic set the pace for. So it is the father of CCGs, and quite debatable if its still a superior CCG.

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szlachcic22 wrote:


I also agree with you about the art. There was some great looking original art on some of the cards, but also some horrible art. The good looking stuff wasn't exactly up to the normal GW standards, but it is about what I expect from FFG. To me the artist who does the almost CG like images needs to be fired. I can't remember any of the specific cards he did, but they look terrible and don't fit the warhammer look. Of course the recycled GW art looks fantastic as usual.


I assume the "CG" art you are referring to is Clint Langley's, correct me if I'm worng. Just an FYI, he is a prominent artist in GW works and even has his own Warhammer / Warhammer 40k art book. I also believe some or all of his art in the set was recycled.
 
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Chris Alfaro
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MikeDowd wrote:


Both of these games seem much farther removed from M:tG than W:I because winning conditions are different. Whereas in W:I you have creatures with a power/toughness and you need to deal a set amount of damage to win. Yes, you have 3 areas to play guys which grant different abilities, but it's fundamentally the same at the core.


Well, most CCGs I have played have "creatures" with power/toughness, so I need a little more than that to compare MtG and WH:I. I still say that the strategy needed in both is different with MtG having greater strategy in the deck building and few choices during the game, while WH:I has less deck building strategy for now and has many more choices during the game (developments, 3 locations to defend, building up kingdom and quest zones, etc.).

Ice Pick Kick wrote:

I assume the "CG" art you are referring to is Clint Langley's, correct me if I'm worng. Just an FYI, he is a prominent artist in GW works and even has his own Warhammer / Warhammer 40k art book. I also believe some or all of his art in the set was recycled.


I have been playing WHFB and WH40k for over 12 years now and I wouldn't exactly say Cling Langley is a prominent artist in GW's works. He has done some cover art for some black library novels, but nothing for their actual miniatures lines. As a side note, I do really like his Malus Darkblade covers.

The artist I am actually talking about is Brad Rigney (sp?). His art just doesn't fit the Warhammer feel and if I saw them anywhere else I would just say they are generic fantasy.
 
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Chris Alfaro
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I don't have any experience with the other card games you mentioned as I am mainly a miniature wargamer or board gamer, but I understand what you are getting at. I do agree that alternate victory conditions could make for a more interesting game.
 
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Jon W
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Did you (OP) find the in-game decision points to be similar to Magic? On a read-through, it seems like W:I offers more choices in terms of resources (structurally; of course it has a much smaller card pool right now).

I am a bit let down that this game, A Game of Thrones: The Card Game, and Call of Cthulhu: The Card Game all feel a bit "samey" to me mechanically. Each has a "commit to a fight in one of three areas, tap to defend, compare numbers/icons, stuff dies" that all feels, in the end, like Magic's basic duel idea. The resource mechanisms are better (I hate lands in Magic; Garfield himself wasn't all that fond of it after the fact). but there's a fundamental similarity in terms of expending power vs. preserving it for response. There are a lot of creative ideas in CCGs, and little reason to keep banging away at the same old thing.
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MikeDowd wrote:
wytefang wrote:

Not the most accurate of reviews but an honest effort at least. ::: shrug :::


If you have any empirical claims as to the innacuracies in my review I'd love to answer them but you only gave subjective reasons as to why. Careful man, you're treading on blind fanboy ground when your opinion becomes fact.


Hmm...well I suppose I could just as easily make the same claims about your review - calling it a "hater" review, which passed along subjective info that wasn't entirely accurate. The thing is that it's more than possible for someone's opinion to accurately represent reality - and of course, to cover up contrary opinions that fly in the face of that reality, people love to toss out the "fanboy" claims, like you've done here. I'll be the first to admit that it's a fine line to walk, either way.

You requested "empirical" data about the inaccuracy of this review so here you go:

1. You ripped on the matching of theme to the game while claiming that the Factions match thematically very well, particularly flavor-wise - so it's hard to figure out which you really think is the case. The inaccuracies lie in the fact that there are clear connections between the gameplay of mass combat and the factions' style of gameplay with the theme. Your issue is that in your limited view that's not good enough. I would expect you to be much more clear in a review that while you can see the matched theme, your very narrow definition of it makes you unable to appreciate it or acknowledge that it may very well be more than good enough for the general masses.


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Quote:
Magic players know that white borders help a card wear better over time and shuffles as abrasion against card edges can wear off the ink and mark cards.


This one had me chuckling at the high-brow "Us Magic players are an elite breed and know better than everyone else." shake Leaving aside the insulting implications of the tone of your remark here, you could just as easily argue (empirically of course) that the white edges would show scuffings just as badly if not more so without the distraction of art to hide the scratchings.


3.
Quote:
The Core Deck sets seem too simple
- Again, considering that it's a base STARTER set, this is misleadingly subjective. Warhammer:Invasion doesn't purport to be a fully-expanded, deep card game at launch in the Core Set, but rather a fun starter set that can get people playing the game. Seems like a forced gripe to me but each to his own.


4.
Quote:
The rules aren't much to write home about, as with any CCG, the game is all in the card abilities.
- Again, misleadingly subjective as nearly every other review I've read (here and elsewhere) and many fan comments have indicated pleasant surprise at the novel usage of Units and Support cards to generate the actual resources, based on location, for the game. I'd hope that most people could see the unique coolness of that concept. Of course, for those of us who aren't elite, all-knowing Magic players, we're probably just easily impressed.


Unfortunately this review is a bit too heavily subjective (which isn't always bad, reviews have to be somewhat subjective, obviously) and it's a review that carries that all-knowing (and to be honest, wearisome) tone that either insults those who don't care to come from a Magic: the Gathering background or one that tears down Warhammer:Invasion for not being Magic (which it isn't, thankfully). Of course you can chalk all this up to me being a "fanboy" if that helps ease your mind.

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GaryB wrote:
Rindel wrote:
I don't think it seems to matters what type of card game comes out and by which company, they all seem to get compared to Magic the Gathering.


Which speaks volumes for the genious of design behind Magic. It really is the king of card games, if not of games, period. No accident it is the top-selling CCG by miles and miles. I've played it fairly compulsively for nearly 12 years now and I still get goosepimples at how beautiful and clever the design is and how good the damn game plays.

Lots of game designers obviously feel the same way. It is easy to see echoes of Magic in many many games. In fact, Magic is so well-designed, so brilliant, that many of the basic concepts it uses are now second-nature "standards" for games designers, even if they dont conciously know they are paying hommage to (ripping off?) Magic. It's almost Lord fo the Rings-like in its revered place as defining its genre. Almost every fantasy book I've read since LotR has echoes of that book and reuses many of its basic concepts. Same with (card) games and Magic.

And even just one simple read of the rules for WH:I and a look a few of the cards and you can see plainly the debt this game owes to Magic. And for the record, this game reeks of Magic more than most.


So very much wrong with this post, it's too much to even bother with...the claims recently leveled at me by Mike (concerning fanboyism) seem dramatically appropriate here. LOL
 
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MikeDowd wrote:
wytefang wrote:

You requested "empirical" data about the inaccuracy of this review so here you go:


I can see why you put the quotations there.


No, I think you missed the subtle (or not-so-subtle) point but it's okay.
 
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