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Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! – Kursk 1943» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Excitement and criticism rss

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Rasmus Høygaard Jensen
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I finaly got my game a couple a days ago, and i´ve been looking at it, touching it ever since. blush AND i´ve been looking forward to the day (today) where my buddy Anders is comming over, and we are going to take SoS at her first spin.

However there is something about the firefights that anoys me;
After having read most of the firefights through, it seems to me that some of them are more "train like" than "car like", meaning that they are to tight composed, giving you the feeling of following a track, rather than making your own strategy.

I personaly like the AtB firefights, where you ENTER the map, or at least start up at a little distance from the enemy, so that you can approach him/her the way YOU want to.

An example is "Dance of the totenkopfs" where you practically start on your opponents toes, witch gives me the feeling of a chess game, rather than a tactical war game. several other firefights have the same look to them, but not all, and again, i have not played them yet.

Still i feel its fair to criticize, as i played AtB many times, and know the feelig of a firefight, when i see it. The firefights in AtB, generally seems to give you more freedom (like a car or better, a tank)

But all in all, Great rules Uwe! I´m looking forward to ALL the titles in this series.
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Shawn Woods
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You could always make custom firefights to compensate for this.
 
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Rasmus Høygaard Jensen
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but will this not lead to hours and hours of game testing?
or do you have some tools to make it easier?
Thanx
 
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Steve Pultorak
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That's a nice request! Since I play mostly solo, it doesn't matter if I risk upsetting any play balance. You could probably start a turn or two earlier and enter from a board edge.

Hopefully it's the fun you and your opponent are pursuing ...not who wins!
 
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Rasmus Høygaard Jensen
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Lorddrek wrote:

I would really love to see and hear more about custom firefight tools. At the very least assigning units a value for scenario building purposes. Some formula that takes most stats into some sort of consideration. Perhaps a final tweak for some of the more powerful or weak units would be needed for balance. Anyone have any experience doing this? I would love to hear pros and cons to this or other methods.



Here is a link to the AtB forum about custom scenario generator

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/434077

Seems the discussion kind of died.

Anyway we played this evening, and it was a great time!
Looking forward to those bonus "5-8 squad, 2-6 tanks/AT gun, starting from boardedges" kind of firefights whistle
 
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James Carlton
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I think quite a few start reasonably well engaged and then have reinforcements show up for more randomness. I'm pretty sure there's more than a few which have a definite defender and attacker.

I guess the opposite problem would be "Why do all the firefights start with me having to move my guys onto the board for the first two turns?"
 
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Rasmus Høygaard Jensen
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Maybe i´ts just me, but i really value the "silence before the storm of steel"
 
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James Carlton
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Well probably the easiest thing to change without breaking too much would be the starting positions.

Just step everyone a few hexes back and add a turn or two on.
 
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James Palmer
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There's a card-based random scenario generator in the works.
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Mark Mitchell
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I agree about this. I don't like everyone in firing range to start with. I hope not too many are like this! I would prefer more turns in a scenario with a greater distance.
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Dean halley

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Uwe emphasis is always on historical results, and I don't think the Firefights are any different. Starting a Firefight at the point of contact forces us into the action as it was in the situation being represented. That is the best type of simulation there is if thats what we are looking for.

Just my two cents worth.

Dean
 
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Rasmus Høygaard Jensen
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Felkor wrote:
There's a card-based random scenario generator in the works.

looking forward to that! could be a nice alternative to the historical campaigns.

Dean halley wrote:
Uwe emphasis is always on historical results, and I don't think the Firefights are any different. Starting a Firefight at the point of contact forces us into the action as it was in the situation being represented. That is the best type of simulation there is if thats what we are looking for.

I also think i´ts important that the game is loyal to history.
Never the less, i don´t see why you could´nt start with a little more distance/planning. You are going to re-write history anyway.
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uwe eickert
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Firefight developments were tough for this game. The German tanks soooo outgunned the Soviets. On top of that, they had radio communication and much better targeting optics. So it is very frustrating for the Soviets at times, because the kill ratios at Kursk were up to 20:1 at times at very long range. And a lot of the German kills were pulled off of the battlefield and repaired. FF7 - Wounded Tiger is a good example of the German range.

In dance of the Totenkopfs, I wanted to show what happened to the Germans when the Soviets actually did get in close to them west of Greznoye. Needless to say, try the firefight. It is a great 4 player game and is one of our favorites. Very tense to the very end.

Also please note that I took some artistic license in this firefight. Most of the Panther tanks were attached to the Grossdeutschland Div of 48th Pz Corps, and many of these broke down due to transmission problems in the first few days. I added the Panthers here because I wanted to give greater scope to the firefight. I also have documents that show several Panthers attached to the II SS Pz Corps, but would like to have this substatiated by others. It was a very confusing time during battle, but I would think that we could rely on the German "paperwork trail". LOL
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Jason Cawley
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The SS panzer corps had no Panthers during the offensive phase of the Kursk battle.

The first Panther unit assigned to any of its units was the Panzer battalion of Das Reich, which was *issued* 96 Panthers in July, but it was still training in Germany throughout the month. It first entered combat, assigned to its parent division, on 22 August, long after the Kursk offensive battle was over. The date of issue vs. date entering combat issue has confused numerous amateurs over the years.

The only other issuance of new Panthers during the battle time-frame were 3 replacement shipments, the first two dispatched from Germany on 13 July and 17 July of 6 Panthers each, assigned to the regimental staff of Panzer Regiment 39 (the sole organization using them at Kursk, and assigned throughout to Gross Deutschland), and a large full trainload of replacement Panthers, 96 tanks, dispatched on 18 July and meant to restore 51st Panzer battalion (one of the two subordinate to 39 Panzer regiment) to full TOE, while all remaining operational Panthers were to transfer to 52nd Panzer battalion on its arrival. This train was dispatched on 18 July but did not arrive at the front before August 1. Again, too late for the Kursk battle, it merely replaced losses incurred during the fighting, after its close. (The same is true of the smaller command tank shipments BTW - those were just dispatched earlier when the first need for them was heard back in Germany).

As for the role of Tigers at Kursk, yes of course they were monsters in that era, and it mattered in the early portion of the fighting especially. But the entire SS Panzer corps had all of 15 of them left in running order the night before the famous Prokhorovka battle on 13 July, and only 4 still running that evening. What they actually relied on was 75 Panzer IV longs and about 50 StuG longs (they also had about 50 each of Panzer III longs and Panzer III shorts). Moreover, about 50 of the long 75mm vehicles plus nearly all of the Panzer III longs were with the defensive front facing east and south-east (lining the right hand side of the corps penetration) rather than out at the tip of the spearhead.

The usual fairy tale about T-34s charging to point blank to penetrate Tigers from the side is utter balderdash. They did close yes, but it was because the 76L42 on the T-34s could penetrate the 80mm fronts of StuGs and Panzer IVs (hull) only within about 500 yards - not to deal with Tigers, which were too rare, and wrecked by "hail fire", mines, or fell out from cumulative mechanical wear long before the climax of the battle.

A Panzer IV long or StuG III with 75mm L43 or L48 has a very definite edge over a T-34/76, but nothing like the invulnerability Tigers, Panthers (frontally), or Elephants possessed.

If you need a source to confirm the above, see Zetterling and Frankson, "Kursk 1943".

I hope this helps.
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