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Subject: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread - RESULTS POSTED rss

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Daisy Manning
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Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade
Discussion Thread
RESULTS POSTED

Trade GeekList: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/47333
Request GeekList: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/47334

On-Line Want List Generator (OLWLG) will be required for this event.
Please remember to tip JeffyJeff & cokasaki some GG for their programs.

Key Dates & Times (EASTERN TIME - Take Note of AM/PM):
Open for posting games: Immediately until Thursday, October 22 (6:00 PM)
Want list submission period: Thursday, October 22 (6:00 PM) until Sunday, October 25 (6:00 AM)
Results about an hour thereafter!

Rules:

1) You must have a valid Canadian address to which your items will be shipped (ie. You don't have to be a Canadian to participate; however, you will need to have a Canadian address where the games can be shipped).

2) Do not delete or remove items from your entries once you have submitted them!

If you trade/sell or for any other reason cannot trade the item as listed before the end of the Math Trade, edit the geeklist item and strike out the text (Example: EXAMPLE; to do this: [ - ] EXAMPLE [ / - ] minus the spaces), change the Game ID to 23953 (Outside the Scope of BGG) and add +altname+ Item Withdrawn/Relisted -altname- and submit a blank wantlist for the item.

You can add items to your entries as sweeteners once they have been listed; however, you may NOT then remove such sweeteners (as someone may have added the item to their list because of said sweetener).

3) Gift certificates, Geekgold, and non Board Game/RPG items are all permitted. Gift certificate and GG arbitrage is NOT permitted. Cash offerings will NOT be permitted.

4) Non-game entries (DVDs/CDs/GG/Gift Certificates etc) must be listed as Outside the Scope of BGG (Game ID: 23953), Miscellaneous Game Accessory (Game ID: 5985) or Miscellaneous Game Merchandise (Game ID: 22104) and must include the +altname+ brief description -altname- format in the description of your item. Use of the +altname+ brief description -altname- will only work if one of these is selected as the main item, and will NOT work for sweeteners.

Therefore, if you are offering an expansion for which there is no entry in BGG (for instance expansion cards handed out at Essen) and NOT the base game, you are required use "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" to help avoid confusion.

5) In your entries you are required to describe the condition of the components & box as best as possible for all items you are trading (ie. You are required to describe the condition of games which are New (In Shrink) and any included Sweetners).

For games which have multiple languages and editions, you also required to specify the language and edition of your item.

For games which are not being sent in shrink you are required to inventory the components and list anything missing. Do not assume that the game is complete, even if you have never played the game and just removed the shrink.

Please list if the game is coming from a smoke free environment or not.

If the game and/or expansion you are listing is a "Print & Play" you are required to make that clear in the description (give specifics what it was printed on, mounted on, etc).

If you are listing an expansion, and you would like to reference the base game in the description; be clear one way or the other if you are including the base game or not. Do not include a link to the base game unless you are including it (ie. if you include a link to the base game, you will be required to send the base game).

If you do not list a condition, missing components, edition or smoking details the game will be considered to be in excellent to mint condition, complete, English language and from a non-smoking home.

6) Sweeteners are required to be listed using the GAMEID formatting (Example: Coloretto; to do this: [ G A M E I D = XXXX ] minus the spaces). To find the Game ID simply search the game and at the right hand side of the games page is listed the Game ID. For example, Coloretto's game id is 5782. If you don't use this format your sweeteners won't show up in the OLWLG properly.

Do NOT include links to other game's BGG page in your entry unless you are actually including them as a sweetener. Again, if you include a link to a game in your description you will be required to ship that game.

If you would like to include a link to a game you are NOT including; use www.tinyurl.com (or a similiar service) to create a link that will redirect to the game's page (Example: http://tinyurl.com/my4h67 instead of http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5782 or Coloretto), or use one of the pictures from the game's listing (Example: See Below, to do this: [ I m a g e I D = XXXX ] minus the spaces). To find the Image ID simply search the game, and find the picture you would like to link, at the left hand side of the image page is listed the Image ID. For example, the main image for Coloretto's Image ID is 149765. If you don't use this format your items will show up as sweeteners, and you will be required to ship that game.



7) If you are offering a Pick X number of games from a list you are required to listed it as Outside the Scope of BGG (Game ID: 23953), Miscellaneous Game Accessory (Game ID: 5985) or Miscellaneous Game Merchandise (Game ID: 22104) and must include the +altname+ Pick X -altname- in the description. Use of the +altname+ brief description -altname- will only work if one of these is selected as the main item, and will not work for sweeteners. Therefore if you are allowing a person to pick from multiple sweeteners and are including a specific game; you are required to listed it as Outside the Scope of BGG (Game ID: 23953), Miscellaneous Game Accessory (Game ID: 5985) or Miscellaneous Game Merchandise (Game ID: 22104) and must include the +altname+ GAME NAME + Pick X -altname-.

8) You will be required to cover the full shipping costs for the games you are shipping to any valid Canadian address. If you're shipping and want to pay extra for insurance, without the recipient requesting it, that's your choice and that cost should not be passed on to the recipient without their prior consent. However, if the recipient requests and is willing to pay for priority shipping/insurance, please accommodate accordingly.

9) There is no list cap; therefore, you can submit an unlimited number of items. If there is something you really hope to see someone post; please list it in the Request GeekList.

10) If you've been reported as a bad trader, you cannot participate. If you try to, I will remove your entries. If you see someone posting entries who is a bad trader, please let me know. I reserve the right to submit a blank want list on behalf of any items (though unlikely). If I do submit a blank want list on your behalf; I will notify you via GeekMail.

11) You are NOT permitted include links to where you are selling the item/game (example BGG Marketplace link/E-bay link). This makes your entry look like you are only trying to sell your game and not looking to trade it. As this is a Trade list, items here should be those you are looking to trade not advertise for sale.

12) You will be required to periodically check your entries for Comments, and respond to them as appropriate. The OLWLG will let you know if any of your items have unanswered comments.

13) You will be submitting your want list using the OLWLG.

It is best to work on your want list and submit it early, so you don't miss the deadline. If you need to make changes after it is submitted, you can make the necessary changes and then resubmit it any time during the submission period (this does not cause any extra work for me, so feel free to do this as often as needed).

If you will be unavailable during the want list submission period but still wish to participate, contact me directly and we can discuss alternatives.

Creating want lists is not the same as submitting them. To submit them you will need to click on the "Submit My Wants" button. If you're not sure how to find this, consult the documentation referenced above or ask in the discussion thread. When you submit your want lists, you will receive a confirming GeekMail. If you do not get one, your want lists have not been submitted. Your want lists in the GeekMail may be truncated - this is fine.

Other useful information:
OLWLG Guides: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/30011
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/32005 (Duplicate protection)
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/159648
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/OLWLG

Software Used: TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection. METRIC=USERS-TRADING

Note: Only errors by the moderator will invalidate the results.

Also in the case that there is a problem after the results are posted, at most it will only invalidate the affected trade chain(s) and not the entire results set. In addition if the problem can be resolved by the most directly affected party or parties, then that is perfectly acceptable.

If you've never used the OLWLG before:

1) Follow this link - http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/bgglogin.cgi
2) Enter your BGG name and click on "Send Now".
3) You will receive a GeekMail containing your own personal link to the new OLWLG.
4) For assistance using the OLWLG please see the links provided above.
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Daisy Manning
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade
As always there's going to be someone missing.

In the end we missed:

# MISSING 9 WANTS (1.9%) FROM 4 USER(s) (5.4%):
# baymonkey (2)
# petermal (5)
# Shalmar (1)
# sirebelle (1)
 
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Daisy Manning
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade
Some Links:

Users List
Official Wants
Most Wanted
Who Wanted Yours?

A Few Statistics:

# Users with items: 73
# MISSING 9 WANTS (1.9%) FROM 4 USER(s) (5.4%)
[ users trading = 53 ]

53/69 = 76.8% of Users who Submitted a Want List Received a Trade

# Item count: 453
Num trades = 112 of 444 items (25.2%)

112/444 = 25.2% of Items that had a Want List Traded

Num groups = 9
Group sizes = 45 21 12 10 9 9 2 2 2
Elapsed time = 13198ms
 
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Daisy Manning
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade
And what everyone wants to know:

Results (OLWLG)
Results (Text)
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Jason Epp
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Woohoo!
 
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Ian Klinck
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Hey! Glad to see you doing another one of these! I'll have to sort out my stuff again, and get some things listed...

(I'll get them up when the trade is listed in the OLWLG tool - having the posting tool from that is so handy!)
 
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Karl Rainer
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Although I am a bit nervous about it, I may just take the plunge and join this as my first Math Trade ever. I have a bit of reading to do to understand the Want List Generator, I think!
 
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Ian Klinck
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
krainer wrote:
Although I am a bit nervous about it, I may just take the plunge and join this as my first Math Trade ever.

Please do!

Remember, you can only get trades that you actually want, so there's nothing to lose! If you need a hand with understanding how things work, just ask - there are lots of us that are happy to help!
 
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Daniel Corban
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Are we really going to have OLWLG support? "JeffyJeff" is very particular about shipping restrictions.

If so, I will wait until it shows up there to add my games.
 
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Karl Rainer
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Do the Items posted in the Request Geeklist get used in any way by the OLWLG or is it merely a way to show interest to others who might list something there as an offering? Is there any obligation to "bid" on a game you posted in the Request list if it does actually make it to the "Offered" list?
 
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Jason Epp
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
dcorban wrote:
Are we really going to have OLWLG support? "JeffyJeff" is very particular about shipping restrictions.

If so, I will wait until it shows up there to add my games.
It's the same guidelines that Daisy has had in the past, so I don't think there would be any issues)...
 
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Murray C
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Oh goodie! I just finally got really into BGG and was looking forward to the next Canadian math trade. I haven't done much reading on it yet, but I'm guessing you put what you have for trade in one geeklist and then put what you want in the other?

I'm not looking for much, so I'll probably skip out on using OLWLG and do everything manually.
 
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Ian Klinck
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
krainer wrote:
Do the Items posted in the Request Geeklist get used in any way by the OLWLG or is it merely a way to show interest to others who might list something there as an offering? Is there any obligation to "bid" on a game you posted in the Request list if it does actually make it to the "Offered" list?

It's just an indication of what games will likely get some interest if listed. It is not used by the OLWLG.

While there's no obligation to put anything you put in the Request List on your Want Lists, you probably shouldn't put something in the Request List if you don't have something you'd be willing to trade for it.
 
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
MrScaryMuffin wrote:
Oh goodie! I just finally got really into BGG and was looking forward to the next Canadian math trade. I haven't done much reading on it yet, but I'm guessing you put what you have for trade in one geeklist and then put what you want in the other?

I recommend that you read the links given in the first message.

The "Request List" is just a wish list - it isn't used in the actual trade algorithm.

We'll all list our items in the main GeekList, and everyone will submit their final Want Lists via the OLWLG. Those lists are basically lists of what you'll trade each of your listed items for. The Trade Maximizer does its magic, and tells us who to ship our games to.

Quote:
I'm not looking for much, so I'll probably skip out on using OLWLG and do everything manually.

Based on the rules listed, that's not an option - but the OLWLG is really easy to use...
 
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Daniel Corban
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
MrScaryMuffin wrote:
I'm not looking for much, so I'll probably skip out on using OLWLG and do everything manually.

In the past, when everything was done manually, inevitably there were typos and copy/paste errors. Always. This ended up delaying the results for a day as we waited for corrected lists or the decision to drop the offender from the trade.

The days of doing things by hand are long gone, my friend.
 
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Sheldon
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Sweet!

Day one isn't even over yet (for us west coasters at least) and we already have almost 6 full pages of submitted items.

Pretty good for a geographic specific math trade.

Thanks for setting this up again Daisy.
 
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
I never done a Math trade before. I have seen results from previous math trades and sometimes, some games from a trader doesn't get trade.

So does this mean that if I join it with a game, I pick some games I want in the list....and at the end, when the program does it calculation, I end up with games I wanted...or no games at all? Or can I end up with a game I didn't want?
 
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Franco
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
If you follow the rules and carefully construct your wantlists, you are protected against getting unwanted games. Read all the information in the header of this list, read the math trade help links, and you'll be 95% there. Ask any remaining questions here, and we'll help you out.

To answer your question, if you list one game in this trade it might or might not trade, depending on how wanted it is. But you only have to ship it away if you win a game in return, and if you did things corrrectly, you'll be getting a game that you really want.
 
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Ian Klinck
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
You can only get games you want, but you might not get any games. You cannot end up with a game you don't want (assuming you submit your want list correctly).

Trading a game also depends on people wanting your games.



Say I'm trading a copy of Carcassonne, and, among the items on the list, I see Dominion, Pandemic, and Race for the Galaxy, which I'd be willing to trade my copy of Carcassonne for. I submit a want list that says: For Carcassonne, I'm willing to take Dominion, Pandemic, or RftG.

The Trade Maximizer will do its thing, and, if it comes up with a loop that results in someone sending me one of those games, I will receive that game, and ship my copy of Carcassonne to someone else.

If no one wants Carcassonne, then there won't be a trade loop that includes it, and I won't get a trade for it.

If a lot of people want the games I want, or if the people trading those games don't have much that they're willing to trade them for, then there still might not be a trade loop that includes me. But, worst case, I just keep my game and try to trade it next time.


According to Daezee's announcement, she's using "USERS-TRADING" as the key factor for trade calculation, which (as I understand) means that it will try to pick trade loops to have the most people with at least one trade. If you list a few items, and have reasonable expectations about what you want for them, you should have a good chance of getting at least one trade.
 
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Daisy Manning
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
jepp wrote:
Woohoo!

Arrrrrh! arrrh

iklinck wrote:
Hey! Glad to see you doing another one of these! I'll have to sort out my stuff again, and get some things listed...

(I'll get them up when the trade is listed in the OLWLG tool - having the posting tool from that is so handy!)

I've been meaning to do one for a while now; just been very busy. But since I've had midterm break to catch up on a few things, now just worked out for it. =)

And I agree. The OLWLG posting tool is the best. Makes listing so much easier!

krainer wrote:
Although I am a bit nervous about it, I may just take the plunge and join this as my first Math Trade ever. I have a bit of reading to do to understand the Want List Generator, I think!

Your first math trade will always give you a few jitters. If you have any questions though, feel free to ask. The reading material will give you the basics, but it's not necessarily the best. Usually everyone comes away with questions (especially about duplicate protection), so don't hesitate to ask (you definitely aren't the first to ask).

dcorban wrote:
Are we really going to have OLWLG support? "JeffyJeff" is very particular about shipping restrictions.

If so, I will wait until it shows up there to add my games.

The shipping restrictions are for those non country specific math trades. I've always been using these rules (just made a few things bolder) and it's never been a problem!

I believe you have your games listed already, but for anyone else who was waiting for the OLWLG to list things... It's loaded into the OLWLG now.

krainer wrote:
Do the Items posted in the Request Geeklist get used in any way by the OLWLG or is it merely a way to show interest to others who might list something there as an offering? Is there any obligation to "bid" on a game you posted in the Request list if it does actually make it to the "Offered" list?

The Request List is not used at all by the OLWLG and the OLWLG does offer options to see which games are on the wishlist of the people taking part. The purpose of the Request List is to tell people which games you are most interested in, and if you have any specific requests for edition, etc. Just a way to give an idea what would likely have offers if you listed an item.

There is no obligation to add a game you requested to your want list. If you get the game another way, isn't the condition you want, or if you simply decide you no longer want it. That's fine, no need to add it to your want list, only add the games you want for the games you offer.

MrScaryMuffin wrote:
Oh goodie! I just finally got really into BGG and was looking forward to the next Canadian math trade. I haven't done much reading on it yet, but I'm guessing you put what you have for trade in one geeklist and then put what you want in the other?

I'm not looking for much, so I'll probably skip out on using OLWLG and do everything manually.

The Trade Geeklist is the one where you list the items you are trading. The Request list is not your want list, but simply requesting (and hoping beyond hope) that a game gets listed. Your want list will be built in the OLWLG out of the other times that are listed.

If you have any problems with the OLWLG feel free to send a GeekMail my way and I'd happy to walk you through. Doing things manually can lead to errors, and so using the OLWLG is always preferred. That said, I have in the past (for those who couldn't figure out the OLWLG) entered data manually, but it's better if you can figure out the OLWLG as it's required in most Math Trades.

polkeroo wrote:
Sweet!

Day one isn't even over yet (for us west coasters at least) and we already have almost 6 full pages of submitted items.

Pretty good for a geographic specific math trade.

Thanks for setting this up again Daisy.

I know! Lots of games, hopefully we get some good trades out of this.

And no problem for setting it up. I love running Math Trades!

Bobthesnake wrote:
I never done a Math trade before. I have seen results from previous math trades and sometimes, some games from a trader doesn't get trade.

So does this mean that if I join it with a game, I pick some games I want in the list....and at the end, when the program does it calculation, I end up with games I wanted...or no games at all? Or can I end up with a game I didn't want?

You have it right. You'll either end up with a trade for a game that you put on your want list, or no trade at all. You will NEVER end up with a game that was not on your want list.

That said, sometimes people have second thoughts and are disappointed with the results, but they never get a game they did not have prior knowledge they could get. So keep in mind when doing your want list... any of the items you add to your want list are possibilities for you to receive.

If you have any questions about building your want list in the OLWLG feel free to post them here or send me a GeekMail. I'm sure either way you'll get the answer to your question. The OLWLG may seem a little confusing at first, but it's pretty easy once you get the hang of it!

loquitur wrote:
If you follow the rules and carefully construct your wantlists, you are protected against getting unwanted games. Read all the information in the header of this list, read the math trade help links, and you'll be 95% there. Ask any remaining questions here, and we'll help you out.

This goes for any new participants. Always try to get through the information, but I agree that's it's not complete. Don't feel alone in any questions that you have, I think everyone who begins always has questions. If you don't feel like you are grasping a topic, ask. I'm sure you won't be the first or last to have such a question.

iklinck wrote:
According to Daezee's announcement, she's using "USERS-TRADING" as the key factor for trade calculation, which (as I understand) means that it will try to pick trade loops to have the most people with at least one trade. If you list a few items, and have reasonable expectations about what you want for them, you should have a good chance of getting at least one trade.

Ian's right here. I am using the USERS-TRADING metric, this means that the Trade Maximizer will try to maximize the number of people trading instead of solely looking for the most trades. This usually gives us a few more people trading who normally wouldn't if it was looking strictly for the most trades. Most math trades use this to try and get as participants a trade as possible.
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Daniel Corban
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Daezee wrote:
Ian's right here. I am using the USERS-TRADING metric, this means that the Trade Maximizer will try to maximize the number of people trading instead of solely looking for the most trades. This usually gives us a few more people trading who normally wouldn't if it was looking strictly for the most trades. Most math trades use this to try and get as participants a trade as possible.

I initially thought this as well, but it seems that "users trading" is just a tie breaker. Trademax finds the maximum number of trades first. Then, if there are several ways of reaching this maximum, it chooses the one which has more users trading.

In other words, it has an extremely minor effect.
 
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Karl Rainer
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
This will be my first math trade.

It seems to me that the most common reasons for having 30-40% trade success ratio are:

a) People not putting very many choices in their Lists
b) People only trying to trade "up" in value (say, trying to get Space Hulk in exchange for Race for the Galaxy), instead of staying within a realistic range

Would this be correct in your view?

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Bob Snake
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Let's say I want to trade my HeroScape Master Set: Rise of the Valkyrie. I have to post it in the trade geek list and it's in the trade? I read the OLWLG to submit my wants, so I was wondering if there is a same program to submit my game to trade. I have read the first post and I from what I could assume, I only need to post my game in the trade geek list in the first post.

Just want to confirm.
 
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Daniel Corban
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
You can use the OLWLG to submit your games to the list, but it isn't required. It's just convenient for people who have used it in the past, since it saves your previous lists. This allows you to just load your old list and make any changes.

There is nothing wrong with just manually adding it to the list.
 
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Bob Snake
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Re: Trick or Treat - Canadian Math Trade - Discussion Thread
dcorban wrote:
You can use the OLWLG to submit your games to the list, but it isn't required. It's just convenient for people who have used it in the past, since it saves your previous lists. This allows you to just load your old list and make any changes.

There is nothing wrong with just manually adding it to the list.

....but my main question was.......manually adding it to the list is what? Just adding it to the Trade geek list which in at the top of the OP's post?
 
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