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Subject: Scenario 2: Extermination - Deadlock? rss

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Steve Struebing
United States
Annandale
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All,

I just played scenario 2 with a friend where I played the role of the Genestealers, and he the Space Marines. The board configuration is set up with long straight halls and 2 entry points for the Genestealers. The space marines quickly set up shop with Storm Bolters and Auto-Cannon on overwatch. I tried several assaults, but a 12 square advance is more than enough to get the Genestealers wasted. Even when the jams happened, he had enough Command Points to unjam on my turn (and according to the rules I believe he stays in overwatch) and kept firing the next advance. So basically having sent 3-4 runs down the hallway, I just stopped and let all my blips accrue on the board. He saw that I had tons of Genestealers on his objectives but not line of sight, and I saw he had plenty of overwatch on those long halls.

It didn't make sense for me to send more Genestealers to the slaughter because the scenario did not grant more reinforcements. It didn't make sense for him to move out because he just had to sit and deplete my limited troops. So, in effect, we were deadlocked strategically. We agreed on the deadlock, called a draw, and in the spirit of the game I charged my Genestealers in and got mauled.

So:
1- Are there mechanics in the game to prevent this deadlock in that scenario
2- In the "spirit of the mission" the genestealers should assault because they are, afterall, mutant aliens who want to waste those Marines. But the marines are there to, afterall, exterminate the genestealers.

Sorry, but it was just a little unsatisfying. Still fun.

To break the deadlock, if others play the scenario, perhaps:
1) If the Marines have not fired in 5 turns, the Genestealers start collecting reinforcements again (bad idea)
2) The genestealers blips HAVE to close on the marines each round (worse idea)
3) A random new entry point is granted to Genestealers (not sure if bad or worse idea)

Any thoughts, ya'll? Please tell me something simple like my friend can't unjam on my turn with Command Points, or that he loses overwatch or something clearing the jam.

Until the next board meeting,
Struebdog
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William Collins
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1. None of which I know. It is a poorly designed scenario in my opinion for this very reason.
2. True...The objectives for each mission are from the vantage point of the Marine player, and that is to *either* survive or kill all the genestealers, or shut down the entry points, which is a mixed bag as far as I am concerned. One or the other would have actually given a bit more info for the players to go on.

All three of your suggestions seem to be delaying the inevitable. I think changing the mission a little more is in order to salvage it.

I say it makes sense, in this instance, to remove the restriction on entry points within 6 spaces. Let the marine player still win if he can hold them down for a full round.

Aside from messing with things, you can alter genestealer tactics. Setting up the marines is really, really important. You want to make sure that you are reacting to Marine selections appropriately and creating the least beneficial (in regards to the marine player) strike team possibilities. Keep the power minis as far away from each other as you can, or bunch them so that you are forcing a weak side. You don't have to split your blips right down the middle, either. You can put all your ones down one side and all your threes down the other to keep things interesting. Of course, you'll have to mix it up a little more than that or the marine player will catch on rather quickly.

I think adding in the 2 gs blips will help a bit, too.


 
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Josh small
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This has been discussed quite a lot in other threads. I think the best suggestion I have seen is to change the marines win conditions so they have to seal the genestealer entrances to win and let the genestealers have unlimited blips.

 
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Blorb Plorbst
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My favorite fix for this is to have the Brood Lord enter after the last blip is played. If the BL is killed then another BL enters. If both die then the Marines win.

This puts a ton of pressure on the Marines to shut down the entry points quickly. A Brood Lord vs anything but the Assault Gun will create a break through and some serious flanking. And if a marine gets lucky with a kill (1/9 per shot with sustained fire and a 50% chance of a jam on a kill), well, then they deserve the win.
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Dan Has
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I've only played two games so far, but I think playing the GS a little different might help. Instead of sending one GS at a time hurtling down the hallway hoping to survive all those rolls, why not move him a few squares forward, if he survives, stop his movement short. Then activate the next GS and this one wont be shot at as much because the first GS was blocking LOS. Continue this pattern to move your masses closer. Hopefully you'll be able to create a safe passage to the next intersection this way.

Of course I have not tried this, it just came into my mind as you described the problem. I'd have to look at and play the scenario to really see how broken it is.
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Michael Melbourne
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Is there anyway to alter the long halls to put an angle in giving the Stealers a little less hail of bullets to have to endure?

I need to go look at my missions book and take a look into this. I have heard that this one doesn't play well.
 
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Gergely Orsó
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goalie4hire wrote:
Is there anyway to alter the long halls to put an angle in giving the Stealers a little less hail of bullets to have to endure?

I need to go look at my missions book and take a look into this. I have heard that this one doesn't play well.


I guess you could substitute some hallway pieces with 3 or 4way intersection pieces. This wouldn't change the map, but would give the GS player some resting zones, and "hopping" areas (I call it hopping when the GS can move diagonal twice to awoid being shot and end up in the same place with the same movement points)
 
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Branko K.
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Splurk wrote:
This has been discussed quite a lot in other threads. I think the best suggestion I have seen is to change the marines win conditions so they have to seal the genestealer entrances to win and let the genestealers have unlimited blips.


Seconded.

This doesn't deviate from the original scenario too much but makes the mission much more fun.

For some other ideas check out this thread.
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Juha Helin
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Perhaps as simple as allowing the Genestealers to take first turn of movement would do it?

Basic problem seems to be that if, during setup the Sergeant is not placed on leftmost room, Terminators can easily seal off two long hallways with Overwatch.

I have tried short advances with masses, long runs etc but always ended up being gunned down.

On the other side, I've pulled two times '1' command point and still managed to seal the hallways faster than the Genestealers could rush in.
 
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Frank Strauss
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My last surviving Marine was overwhelmed by the advancing stealers, but he took them off, one after another.
Then the GS decided to hide behind the corners and this could be the stalemate, but as a true Marine, it´s a question of honor !
The Marine advanced and killed nearly 20 GS and in the end he was the only survivor in the Hulk.

The Emperor has to be proud !
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Branko K.
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Can the marine stand on that square? I'm not so sure.

Also, he doesn't seem to be advancing so much as staying as much in the back as he can (or even further) and overwatching the crap out of GS'es...
 
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From what I can tell the GS strategy really has to be one of stacking hallways and hoping for a weapons jam... or that in focusing on a big rush in one area you can get blips into a good position somewhere else to catch one of the split off marines in a bad position.

20 kills in a row is pretty incredible. It looks like in that picture the GS' only had to get around 6 spaces in under 12 kills to get the last guy. Nice rolling!
 
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Steve Struebing
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BeanThere wrote:
I've only played two games so far, but I think playing the GS a little different might help. Instead of sending one GS at a time hurtling down the hallway hoping to survive all those rolls, why not move him a few squares forward, if he survives, stop his movement short. Then activate the next GS and this one wont be shot at as much because the first GS was blocking LOS. Continue this pattern to move your masses closer. Hopefully you'll be able to create a safe passage to the next intersection this way.

Of course I have not tried this, it just came into my mind as you described the problem. I'd have to look at and play the scenario to really see how broken it is.


Dude, I like the thought process. I will have to try that at some point. The tradeoff considering your recommendation is that the front model will advance more slowly but benefit the back models so there are less cumulative shots at the group moving forward in overwatch, but will increase the "jam-free" shots over time that the SM gets to take because they will occur during his turn at a slower-advancing adversary.

Still, I like how you are analyzing it.
 
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Branko K.
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That's actually quite a valid tactic. Blocking LOS with one kamikaze GS can allow you to amass your forces behind him, but also to create a bullet-free corridor for flanking purposes etc.

However in Mission 2 this tactic isn't really that great. The problem is the Marines are most of the time stationary, which means they have quite a lot of APs and CPs in reserve, and the GS still have to use those long narrow corridors to reach them, long being the operative word. So even if your kamikaze survives and you use him as a "shield" to move in with your other units closer, odds are the marine player will simply tear through them anyways on his turn.
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Andreas Krüger
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baba44713 wrote:
Splurk wrote:
This has been discussed quite a lot in other threads. I think the best suggestion I have seen is to change the marines win conditions so they have to seal the genestealer entrances to win and let the genestealers have unlimited blips.


Seconded.

This doesn't deviate from the original scenario too much but makes the mission much more fun.

For some other ideas check out this thread.


The thread is indeed excellent, check it out!
 
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Joseph LaClair
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The problem for a few of these scenarios is that they are straight ports from the 1st edition without ( in my opinion ) any playtesting. I still feel the best way to play this scenario is with old edition rules and using the old loadouts. 1 Sargeant ( no powersword ) 1 flamer and 3 marines with a stormbolter.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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jphien wrote:
The problem for a few of these scenarios is that they are straight ports from the 1st edition without ( in my opinion ) any playtesting. I still feel the best way to play this scenario is with old edition rules and using the old loadouts. 1 Sargeant ( no powersword ) 1 flamer and 3 marines with a stormbolter.


I don't have too much of a problem with this mission, although I have suggested a bunch of variants about it for those finding it tough. I have also posted some strategy here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/440907

blush

However, if people are finding it too easy for the marines then using 1st ed weapons isn't going to help (IMO) - you would still have 4 bolters, and if the marines cram into the choke point they will still be able to cover every direction on overwatch with a stack of CPs for unjamming every turn. 1st ed overwatch is obviously weaker, but I still reckon you would have more than enough shots to control the horde if you get into the right position.

Of course, no strategy or weapon variant will prevent a deadlock situation if neither player attacks. My favourite way of playing this mission is to make the marines HAVE to block all the stealer entry points in order to win, because it is just more fun to have the marines moving around.
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Dev Null
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I like blocking the entry points as the sole victory condition too... but unless you also add unlimited GS reinforcements, it doesn't change anything much. The "marines" (you call yourself a marine?) just go on the defensive, kill everything in the bowling alleys, and then stroll up to block the entries when its all over.
 
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Jay
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The marines have to go on the attack in this mission they need to "exterminate" the genestealers or seal off the entrances. The GS player just needs to play defensively. They have to find and kill the genestealers it's in the mission brief. If you retry the mission this way it all makes sense, you can hold the corridors and try to sweep the other end with the AC, it's tough but doable. It's also a lot more fun that holing up in a dead end.

Think of it this way, a space marine needs air and food ect. to survive if he camps in a room for too long the genestealers win anyway.
 
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M W
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Pretty much what Jay said. I played the scenario for the first time today as SM. I just wholed up and OW killed all of the assaulting aliens. I even suggested the other player that the marines are there to press the action and seal of entrances, and although it feels wrong not to storm down corridors with genestealers this is the only way GS can win. The SM needs to turn those corners and take down hordes at zero distance. Now this would be a challenge more than enough.
 
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