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Subject: Time to Bundle Up: a math trade - DISCUSSION FORUM rss

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David Thompson
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This math trade is for people who are interested in trading a fair-sized bundle of games for another package of games, or who are looking to trade a high-value game for a similarly valued game (or bundle). All entries must have a minimum value of $80. See below for details.

Links:

Trade GeekList: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/46735
Request GeekList: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/47528

Timeline: All times are Pacific

Open for Item Submissions: Thursday, October 22nd (8:00 am Pacific)
Closed for Item Submissions/Open for Want Lists: Friday, October 30th (8:00 am Pacific)
Want Lists Closed: Sunday, November 1st (7:00 pm Pacific) - no extensions!
Results posted: by Sunday November 1st (8:00 pm Pacific) - hopefully sooner!

Updates:

Results posted below

Software used:
Wantlists will be submitted via the Online Wantlist Generator (OLWLG).
The trade will be run on TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection. SEED=1010101, ITERATIONS=101, METRIC=USERS-TRADING

Below you will find:

* the official summary of items
* the want lists
* the official results
* the rules and restrictions for the trade
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David Thompson
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Official Summary

The official summary is available at:
http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/46735-officialsummary.txt
 
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David Thompson
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Want Lists

The official want lists are available at:
http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/46735-officialwants.txt
 
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David Thompson
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Official Results

The official results are available at:
http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/46735-results-official.txt

A hyperlinked version is available at:
http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/wantedby.cgi?listid=46735
 
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David Thompson
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Rules and Restrictions:

d10-1 Each entry to this math trade must have a value of at least $80 measured by the online retail price (for in-print games), or recent BGG Marketplace sales (for out-of-print games). GeekPrices can help you assess the value of your OOP games (please consider tipping spielboy for his support).

d10-2 If an individual game is not valued above $80, it is highly recommended that entries be of either the "Pick n Games" variety (where the winner chooses n number of games from the ones listed in that entry), or of the "Pick n Points of Games" (where the winner selects games from a menu of options, and may select up to n points worth of games). See the first two entries of the geeklist for an example of each of these types. These offerings must be added as "Outside the Scope of BGG" (game id 23953) and must include the +altname+ brief description -altname- format in the description of your item.

d10-3 Use of the On-Line Want List Generator (OLWLG) is required for this event (please remember to tip JeffyJeff some GG for his support).

d10-4 Gift certificates are only permitted for online game stores and must be in a denomination greater than or equal to $80 (denominations smaller than $80 may be used as sweetener). Traders receiving a gift certificate at the end of the trade are asked to contribute $2 to BGG since gift certificates in trades circumvent the BGG Marketplace ($2.00 is approximately 3% of $65, the value of an $80 bundle minus shipping costs). Gift certificate arbitrage is not allowed.

d10-5 Geekgold, cash and non-gaming items are NOT allowed in this trade.

d10-6 In your listing, you are expected to describe the following as accurately as is reasonably possible: the condition of the box (even if it's in shrink), condition and completeness of components and rules, and the language and edition of your item. This includes sweeteners.

d10-7 Clearly state your shipping restrictions and precisely how much of the shipping you will cover (minimum of $10). State your zip code so others can estimate additional costs.

d10-8 All items in an offering are to be listed using either the GAMEID formatting (Hansa) or a link to the game's page (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/8989). Do NOT include links to other games in your entry unless you are actually including them as a sweetener, as this is displayed in a misleading manner by the OLWLG.

d10-9 If you've been reported as a bad trader, you cannot participate.

Software Used: TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection.
SEED=1010101, ITERATIONS=101, METRIC=USERS-TRADING

Other notes: Please do not delete items or sweeteners once you have listed them. You can always submit a blank want list for an entry if you've traded it away before the deadline.

Only errors by the moderator will invalidate the results.

In the case of problems after the results are posted, they will at most invalidate only the affected trade chain(s) and not the entire result set. In addition if a problem can be resolved by the most directly affected party or parties, then that will be the preferred course of action.

EDIT: Clarified gift certificate sweeteners and shipping minimum.
 
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David Thompson
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Information for new traders:

If you are new to math trades, check out the following links for a primer on how they work. Feel free to ask specific questions below after you have a sense of what they are about:

These two cover the same material, but in different learning styles:
The Math Trade wiki page
Math Trades for Dummies

You will also need to learn about the online wantlist generator (OLWLG):
The OLWLG wiki page
Steve's geeklist on How to use the OLWLG
Chris' geeklist on How to use Duplicate Protection with the OLWLG[/q]
 
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KAS
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Thanks for running this. Although $80 is on the high side, I will try to add some bundles.

One question on this rule:

Quote:
Gift certificates are only permitted for online game stores and must be in a denomination greater than or equal to $80. Traders receiving a gift certificate at the end of the trade are asked to contribute $2 to BGG since gift certificates in trades circumvent the BGG Marketplace ($2.00 is approximately 3% of $65, the value of an $80 bundle minus shipping costs).
If you have this requirement, why not just allow cash to be added as an item or as a sweetener to get the value of a bundle up to $80 and keep this same rule? BGG would still get their cut and people would not need to bother with GCs.

Also, why not allow a GC to be less than $80 if it is added as a sweetener to get the value of a bundle up to $80?

Thanks


 
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Tom Madden
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Great idea! I'm bundling as we speak...
 
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Jason Epp
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Hey, cool idea for a math trade, I prefer to trade games in bundles anyway to save shipping, so I'm excited to see what comes up for offer here... before I post any bundles though, I have a few questions (so hopefully I can get help)!

1) In Canada, our board game prices are a bit higher than in the USA (10-20%?), so are there any recommended US retailer sites that will provide the best fair market value of (in print) games? I've been using Funagain Games (www.funagain.com) in the past as they have what seems to be the broadest inventory of games (plus they have the game weights listed so I can estimate shipping costs), but will that provide consistent market value compared to what others will be using?

2) Coming from Canada, obviously shipping cross border will be a cost factor (both ways)... If past math trades are any indication, I'm guessing most will cap shipping at around $10-$15 (hopefully more for larger bundles?), so if I do the same but also provide an estimate to what total shipping costs would be, would that be helpful? I'm not concerned about the cost for 1 game (usually around $15 anyway), but if I'm bundling multiple games, obviously the costs will be much higher & I'm assuming that most participants the USA won't want to put a bundle on their want list without any idea of total cost... or, should I offer to cover 100% of shipping costs (and reduce my want lists to offset those extra costs)?

3) Finally, any interest in video game bundles, or are we just looking1 for board games alone?

Sorry to take up so much space in the forum here (just want to make sure I do this right) & thanks in advance for the help!
 
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Jack K
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Yikes. This one's too rich for my blood. I think we'll need a regular MT after this one's over for the rest of us.

Good luck though, I hope it's a success!
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Jeff Michaud
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themilkcrate wrote:
Geekgold, cash and non-gaming items are NOT allowed in this trade.
Even if it's at least $80 worth of geek gold, ie. 800 or more geek gold?
 
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Matt Buckingham
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JeffyJeff wrote:
themilkcrate wrote:
Geekgold, cash and non-gaming items are NOT allowed in this trade.
Even if it's at least $80 worth of geek gold, ie. 800 or more geek gold?
Just so you know the going rate is 12GG/$1, so you're talking closer to 1000 GG.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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themilkcrate wrote:
Each entry to this math trade must have a value of at least $80 measured by the online retail price (for in-print games), or recent BGG Marketplace sales (for out-of-print games). GeekPrices can help you assess the value of your OOP games (please consider tipping spielboy for his support).
just an fyi why this is so difficult... I see one entry which is

MarraCash

it's out of print... folks are *trying* to sell copies for $75 in the marketplace... but if you click on the ebay module for it and then click on "completed" you find a near mint copy just sold 2 months ago for only $20 + $9 shipping (by caesarmom).

The one in this math trade does come with a choice of 1 sweetener but I don't think any of them are worth $60 ($80 - $20 for MarraCash).

In any case, it's in the OLWLG
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Chad Egbert
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themilkcrate wrote:
Rules and Restrictions:

or recent BGG Marketplace sales (for out-of-print games). GeekPrices can help you assess the value of your OOP games
Not that I have a problem with it, but I'm sure there will be some users that debate the value of out-of-print games. The range of some games sold in the marketplace can vary a lot.

I think this is a great idea for a math trade.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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mbuckingham wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
themilkcrate wrote:
Geekgold, cash and non-gaming items are NOT allowed in this trade.
Even if it's at least $80 worth of geek gold, ie. 800 or more geek gold?
Just so you know the going rate is 12GG/$1, so you're talking closer to 1000 GG.
That's as subjective as any valuation in this math trade... I still say it's 10gg/$1, small $ geek gold auctinos always go for more, larger amuonts go for 10gg/$1 (or less).... and some folks really value it even more than that.. I sometimes get gg tips for the OLWLG that are a fraction of 1 gg! One I just got the other day was 0.05... even at 10gg/$1 that's half a penny!
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Matt Buckingham
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JeffyJeff wrote:
mbuckingham wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
themilkcrate wrote:
Geekgold, cash and non-gaming items are NOT allowed in this trade.
Even if it's at least $80 worth of geek gold, ie. 800 or more geek gold?
Just so you know the going rate is 12GG/$1, so you're talking closer to 1000 GG.
That's as subjective as any valuation in this math trade... I still say it's 10gg/$1, small $ geek gold auctinos always go for more, larger amuonts go for 10gg/$1 (or less).... and some folks really value it even more than that.. I sometimes get gg tips for the OLWLG that are a fraction of 1 gg! One I just got the other day was 0.05... even at 10gg/$1 that's half a penny!
I stand corrected. Have a fifth of a half penny!
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Kurt
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I can answer one of them, but need more info on the rest as well.
jepp wrote:

1) In Canada, our board game prices are a bit higher than in the USA (10-20%?), so are there any recommended US retailer sites that will provide the best fair market value of (in print) games? I've been using Funagain Games (www.funagain.com) in the past as they have what seems to be the broadest inventory of games (plus they have the game weights listed so I can estimate shipping costs), but will that provide consistent market value compared to what others will be using?
Yes, is there a recommended site? Depending on which one I go to, I can manage to swing the value from $5-10 on any given game, but it's inconsistent and depends on the game. Ultimately, it's not a big deal as I think the game bundle I have in mind is over $80 no matter how you cut it.

I think that US MSRP would likely be a much better baseline as it's as close to a constant as you'll get.

Quote:

2) Coming from Canada, obviously shipping cross border will be a cost factor (both ways)... If past math trades are any indication, I'm guessing most will cap shipping at around $10-$15 (hopefully more for larger bundles?), so if I do the same but also provide an estimate to what total shipping costs would be, would that be helpful? I'm not concerned about the cost for 1 game (usually around $15 anyway), but if I'm bundling multiple games, obviously the costs will be much higher & I'm assuming that most participants the USA won't want to put a bundle on their want list without any idea of total cost... or, should I offer to cover 100% of shipping costs (and reduce my want lists to offset those extra costs)?
Two more questions on shipping: Is there a minimum shipping amount? If someone doesn't say what their shipping policies are, can we assume it's covered?

Quote:

3) Finally, any interest in video game bundles, or are we just looking1 for board games alone?
I believe the rules say games only (no Outside the scope items).

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Kurt
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I like the idea of this one, but I don't envy the questions and arbitration you are likely in for on value disputes. My guess is that you'll be best off with letting people decide relative value for themselves with their wants as it gets close, rather than counting pennies and min-maxing the different online values.

Again, I think that US MSRP for in print games is your best bet for a relatively consistent value ruling.
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Daniel Corban
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JeffyJeff wrote:


MarraCash

it's out of print... folks are *trying* to sell copies for $75 in the marketplace... but if you click on the ebay module for it and then click on "completed" you find a near mint copy just sold 2 months ago for only $20 + $9 shipping (by caesarmom).
I don't know if anyone would pay $75, but you never know. I sold my used copy for $60 (via BGG) about a year ago. I think Ebay is a terrible way to value used boardgames, unless they are extremely high profile. Normal auctions for even "rare" boardgames go for extremely cheap. I find that selling on BGG is better if you care more about money than time. You get the desperate people.
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Ken
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Thanks for hosting the trade David!

I have some questions about the Marracash entry as well. Completed ebay and BGG sale prices, even with one of the listed sweeteners don't add up to $80...

I'm ok with the entry (I'd like to trade for Marracash) but would want to see similar flexibility for other OOP entries.
 
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Ed Sherman
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This is an interesting idea -- I'll have to look at my stuff to see if anything I have is bundle-able.
 
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James Perry
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The price history for Marracash is

Condition: New
Num Avg. Price (Range) Sold Avg Sell Price (Range)
12 $42.57 ($25.00-$75.00) 10 $36.09 ($25.00-$64.00)
Condition: Like New
Num Avg. Price (Range) Sold Avg Sell Price (Range)
6 $55.04 ($24.00-$80.00) 5 $50.05 ($24.00-$74.95)
Condition: Very Good
Num Avg. Price (Range) Sold Avg Sell Price (Range)
14 $39.78 ($15.00-$65.00) 13 $37.84 ($15.00-$65.00)


The problem though is this data does not show WHEN the sales occurred. Was the low end while the game was still in print?

Similar problems happen when a game gets reprinted the average sell price is higher than a new copy of the game due to the spike while it is OOP.


OOP games are sometimes very difficult to accurately value. Especially an uncommon title like Marracash.
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Lo Ma
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Cool idea, but just wanted to point out that if I'm using an online store like Funagain.com as a guide for in-print games, my valuations will be considerably higher than if I use a store line coolstuffinc or Boards and Bits.

So the $80 minimum is a pretty soft number...
 
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Maybe in the interest of full transparency and consistency, regardless of whether a user uses a point system, or is adding sweeteners, you might add a rule that requires users to explicitly list the Average Price listing from the BGG Sales History for the condition of the game they are offering.
 
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Jack K
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MScrivner wrote:
Maybe in the interest of full transparency and consistency, regardless of whether a user uses a point system, or is adding sweeteners, you might add a rule that requires users to explicitly list the Average Price listing from the BGG Sales History for the condition of the game they are offering.
As I'm skipping this one, I should probably stay out of it, but since when has that ever stopped me?

I would point out that if you did go this way, you would need to use the "average sell price", not the "average price". The latter is what people are asking, which is often far more than people have actually paid for it in the past, and surely what people are willing to pay is a more accurate measure than what people would like to receive for it. Not that there's a perfect way to do this - as has been pointed out, the value of a game often becomes higher after it is OOP and the average sell price includes lower prices from when a game is in print (or back in print). etc, etc, etc...

As James says above it's really hard to value OOP games. No wonder I said I wouldn't be the one to run one like this - I have a headache just thinking about how hard this is.

The best advice I can think to give in terms of policing the valuations of these is to pick the simplest method you can think of and don't drive yourself mad over it...
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