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Subject: gypsies and end of turn rss

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Rafaël Theunis
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So let me get this straight: you can pretty much leave all your ocuupied pieces of land, but you only get your loot back when a turn ends (i.e. when the player before the starting player ends his/her turn) ? or do you get it when your turn ends?

we played it once now and kind ahad that question going. It would make sense if it's a t the end of an entire turn, but if you're the starting player in a game of 5 players taking that race is prtty useless... :)
 
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Eric Hautemont
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It's at the end of your turn that you pick up the coins. So you do not have to worry about what other players' do. Whichever terrains your Gypsies abandon this turn will give you some loot. The coins are really there to visually remind you which regions you abandoned this turn (and thus cannot conquer again).

Eric @ DoW
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Chris Martin
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Am I reading it right that the "racial ability" of Gypsies is to rob the land they enter of a coin and then run off with it?

That seems less than politically correct.
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Travis Hall
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chrisjwmartin wrote:
Am I reading it right that the "racial ability" of Gypsies is to rob the land they enter of a coin and then run off with it?

That'd be one possible interpretation, I suppose, but it is only made possible by the fact that the original rules call the victory point markers "coins". I suspect that the mechanic would be unaltered if the terminology of the original game were different.

Another interpretation is that Gypsies get a victory point for every region they abandon (as well as every region they conquer, like everybody else). It's a very good implementation of a nomadic race under Small World game mechanics.

So, I guess you can decide whether DoW is calling the Gypsies thieves or nomads. I'd lean towards the one that isn't essentially based on wordplay, but that's just me.
 
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Chris Martin
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I'm leaning towards the one that's based on their "racial symbol": is a knife more intrinsically associated with robbery or a nomadic lifestyle?
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Aleksander Kopeć
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chrisjwmartin wrote:
Am I reading it right that the "racial ability" of Gypsies is to rob the land they enter of a coin and then run off with it?

That seems less than politically correct.


I see you are Twilight Struggle fan. Don't you think playing communist USSR also isn't politically correct, do you? I mean bilions of victims, decades of terror in eastern Europe, Russia and western Asia...
But wait! It's just a game...

"politcal correctness" is becoming paranoid and pointless like witch hunting in middle-ages.

Please, play and enjoy games, do not turn them into Blasphemious Spawns of Evil Propaganda. And I really don't think Days of Wonder deserved comments like this.
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Chris Martin
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Comfort Eagle wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:
Am I reading it right that the "racial ability" of Gypsies is to rob the land they enter of a coin and then run off with it?

That seems less than politically correct.

I see you are Twilight Struggle fan. Don't you think playing communist USSR also isn't politically correct, do you? I mean bilions of victims, decades of terror in eastern Europe, Russia and western Asia...
But wait! It's just a game...

"politcal correctness" is becoming paranoid and pointless like witch hunting in middle-ages.

Please, play and enjoy games, do not turn them into Blasphemious Spawns of Evil Propaganda. And I really don't think Days of Wonder deserved comments like this.

Hm - no, I think these are two very different things: on the one hand we have the impartial simulation of one side of an international conflict (and I don't think that the Soviet Union was any worse than the USA, though that's by the by); on the other we have a historically maligned and oppressed ethnic group apparently being portrayed as knife-wielding thieves.
 
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Travis Hall
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chrisjwmartin wrote:
I'm leaning towards the one that's based on their "racial symbol": is a knife more intrinsically associated with robbery or a nomadic lifestyle?

I'd associate that symbol more with the dirty great knife in the artwork than either.

Anyway, the offensive stereotype often associated with gypsies involves thievery, not robbery. (Yes, there's a difference.) I don't find this argument, the one involving the symbol, compelling at all.

If you really think the intent is to use an offensive stereotype involving thievery, I'd think the use of the word "gypsies" would be the link. If that's not convincing, I don't think you've got much of a case.
 
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Aleksander Kopeć
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chrisjwmartin wrote:

Hm - no, I think these are two very different things: on the one hand we have the impartial simulation of one side of an international conflict (and I don't think that the Soviet Union was any worse than the USA, though that's by the by); on the other we have a historically maligned and oppressed ethnic group apparently being portrayed as knife-wielding thieves.


Maybe these are different things, it depends of point of view. For me communism is the wrost thing that humanity could ever create and it really hurt me every time I see clueless kid with El Che on his shirt. Yet I'm not going to boycott, call "commie-loving eulogy" or seek hidden agendas in every game involving Soviet Union (of course I'm not saying you are acting like that when writing about gypsies), despite my personal feelings. That are just games made for fun and I know it's not authors intentions to praise this kind of ideology.
 
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Mik Svellov
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chrisjwmartin wrote:
Hm - no, I think these are two very different things: on the one hand we have the impartial simulation of one side of an international conflict (and I don't think that the Soviet Union was any worse than the USA, though that's by the by); on the other we have a historically maligned and oppressed ethnic group apparently being portrayed as knife-wielding thieves.

Hm. It seems to me that you still think of the Romani people as Gypsies. They are not, and I find that politically incorrect in the same way as it is to refer to American natives as Indians.
 
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Chris Martin
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Great Dane wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:
Hm - no, I think these are two very different things: on the one hand we have the impartial simulation of one side of an international conflict (and I don't think that the Soviet Union was any worse than the USA, though that's by the by); on the other we have a historically maligned and oppressed ethnic group apparently being portrayed as knife-wielding thieves.

Hm. It seems to me that you still think of the Romani people as Gypsies. They are not, and I find that politically incorrect in the same way as it is to refer to American natives as Indians.

The term "Gypsy" has historically been applied to the Roma (it does not mean "nomadic" as some seem to think, but is a racial slur on their falsely-ascribed Egyptian origins), and that is today the most common meaning. When a "race" in a game is called "Gypsies" and has attributes that are historically associated with the Roma - especially negative associations, such as knives and stealing money from the places they leave - I don't see why it's unreasonable to see the uncomfortably obvious connection.
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Chris Martin
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Wraith wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:
I'm leaning towards the one that's based on their "racial symbol": is a knife more intrinsically associated with robbery or a nomadic lifestyle?

I'd associate that symbol more with the dirty great knife in the artwork than either.

Anyway, the offensive stereotype often associated with gypsies involves thievery, not robbery. (Yes, there's a difference.) I don't find this argument, the one involving the symbol, compelling at all.

If you really think the intent is to use an offensive stereotype involving thievery, I'd think the use of the word "gypsies" would be the link. If that's not convincing, I don't think you've got much of a case.

And why do Gypsies need a "dirty great knife" in their artwork? You just begged the question (and yes, pedants, that is an accurate usage...). Many of the races have no kind of weapon shown at all. Combine that with the supposed "Gypsy racial ability" of taking money from the land they leave and it leaves a very unpleasant taste in the mouth.
 
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Stuart
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I know absolutely nothing about this game, but from the images alone it does seem the designers needed to check themselves - even the "High Priestesses" are a blatant stereotype. Considering they have it listed for children starting as young as 8 to play, they missed an opportunity to offer an "alternate" view of the "races" involved, instead lamely choosing to reinforce existing notions...Except for the witches, strangely enough - aren't they supposed to be old and ugly with warts all over their noses? Goes to show they are guilty of giving it some thought...

No, don't think I'll be buying this one anytime soon.
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Travis Hall
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chrisjwmartin wrote:
The term "Gypsy" has historically been applied to the Roma (it does not mean "nomadic" as some seem to think, but is a racial slur on their falsely-ascribed Egyptian origins), and that is today the most common meaning. When a "race" in a game is called "Gypsies" and has attributes that are historically associated with the Roma - especially negative associations, such as knives and stealing money from the places they leave - I don't see why it's unreasonable to see the uncomfortably obvious connection.

Knives are historically associated with the Roma?

The thing is, I don't think you'd be making an association between that symbol and the Roma if you weren't going by way of the association with thievery. (An incorrect one, as I've pointed out, but that's neither here nor there right now.) If the knife symbol were attached to a different race, I don't think anybody would consider it an implication that the race in question were thieves (or even robbers).

The same goes for the game mechanic of the race. If it wasn't for the name "Gypsies", I don't think anyone would consider it a thieving mechanic. (If a designer wanted a mechanic to represent thievery, wouldn't it involve taking victory coins from another player? Or something else, but coins are really the only thing Small World has to take.)

So really, these associations spring from the use of the race name "Gypsies".

Now, "gypsies" is, indeed, a real-world racial slur. We all know that this is why you are sensitive to this subject in the first place.

But either the use of this word in the game is a problem because it is a racial slur, or it isn't. If it's okay to use it, I can't see a problem with other aspects of the race that you wouldn't even notice if it weren't for the use of the word. These are things that you only notice because you are looking for something that ties in with your offence, and frankly, if you look hard enough, you would always be able to find something that does that. Anything that fits well enough that players aren't left saying, "Huh? WTF does that have to do with gypsies?" could be spun in the way you are spinning these.

So here's the thing... If you want to crusade, please at least be honest about it. If "gypsies" is still so touchy a term that we need to be sensitive about it, put that argument forward. It shouldn't need the sort of reinforcement you are trying to draw from your spin. If it does need that reinforcement, you are full of it in the first place.

And also, you should be doing it in a different thread. That issue is unrelated to the game mechanical question that started this thread. Either your issue is important enough to have its own thread, or it isn't important at all.
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Travis Hall
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chrisjwmartin wrote:
And why do Gypsies need a "dirty great knife" in their artwork?

So a picture of a woman tossing a knife is a problem now? No. There happens to be a knife in the picture. It's a prominent knife. I'd use it as a symbol too, because the symbol will call the picture to players' minds. It's a good technique for helping players remember what's what in the game.
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gamesterinns wrote:
Except for the witches, strangely enough - aren't they supposed to be old and ugly with warts all over their noses?

What witches? There aren't any witches in the base game or any of the new expansions.
 
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Mik Svellov
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chrisjwmartin wrote:
The term "Gypsy" has historically been applied to the Roma (it does not mean "nomadic" as some seem to think, but is a racial slur on their falsely-ascribed Egyptian origins), and that is today the most common meaning.

In Britain is is also applied to Pavees (travellers of Irish descent), which still doesn't mean it is correct.

I find it perfectly acceptable to use the term "gypsy" in a fantasy or fairytale setting, but find your use of it in modern English far more offensive.
 
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Chris Martin
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Great Dane wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:
The term "Gypsy" has historically been applied to the Roma (it does not mean "nomadic" as some seem to think, but is a racial slur on their falsely-ascribed Egyptian origins), and that is today the most common meaning.

In Britain is is also applied to Pavees (travellers of Irish descent), which still doesn't mean it is correct.

I find it perfectly acceptable to use the term "gypsy" in a fantasy or fairytale setting, but find your use of it in modern English far more offensive.

What the hell? What possible justification can you have for saying that my condemnation of it as a racist term is offensive, while you maintain that using racist words in games is to be encouraged? Which other racist words would you like Small World to include? Do please share.

And we tend to call the Irish travellers "Travellers", not Gypsies.
 
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chrisjwmartin wrote:
What possible justification can you have for saying that my condemnation of it as a racist term is offensive,

What condemnation? You haven't come out and said that use of the term "Gypsies" in the game is racist and/or offensive and thus is a problem in its own right. Instead you obscure that issue by raising a fuss about art and game mechanics.
 
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Chris Martin
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Wraith wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:
What possible justification can you have for saying that my condemnation of it as a racist term is offensive,

What condemnation? You haven't come out and said that use of the term "Gypsies" in the game is racist and/or offensive and thus is a problem in its own right. Instead you obscure that issue by raising a fuss about art and game mechanics.

Alright: so when they introduce the "Kike" race with special ability "take money from all other players" and symbol "coin" you'll believe that it's only the word that's the problem?
 
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Chris Martin
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Days of Wonder wrote:
Gypsies are always on the lookout for more riches. They can even earn Victory coins for regions they abandon...

http://www.daysofwonder.com/smallworld/en/expansions/

None of your weasel words there: I don't think that the statement "Gypsies are always on the lookout for more riches" can be read any differently.
 
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Aleksander Kopeć
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Interesting. In Poland "gypsy" is not racial slur. Here it is nowhere offensive, even for gypsies.
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Wraith wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
Except for the witches, strangely enough - aren't they supposed to be old and ugly with warts all over their noses?

What witches? There aren't any witches in the base game or any of the new expansions.


blush My bad - thought the white ghost ladies were supposed to be witches(my German ain't what it used to be)...Like I said, I know nothing about this game, the gypsy/Roma-slandering thing got me a little concerned, that's all. They probably really didn't even give it a second's thought, which is the real shame.
 
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Chris Martin
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gamesterinns wrote:
They probably really didn't even give it a second's thought, which is the real shame.

Yup.
 
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Thread Locked. The original question was answered, and the off-topic discussion should be in the Religions, Sex, and Politics forum - not here.



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