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Dominion: Seaside» Forums » Rules

Subject: Throne room + Duration cards rss

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Michael Bowman
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Okay so you Throne Room any duration card.

Does the Throne Room stay out with the Duration card till next turn?

Or do you discard the Throne Room and just put some kind of counter on the duration card to let you know you get a second copy of that card next turn?

 
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Tom Servo
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Yes, it stays out.
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Edward Fields
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Rule book says:

Quote:

If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that
other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing
anything. For example if you play Throne Room on Merchant
Ship, both cards stay in play until the Clean-up phase of your next
turn. The Throne Room stays in play to remind you that you are
getting the effect of Merchant Ship twice on that next turn.

Hope it helped!!
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Jody Steele
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What about chaining Throne Rooms?


Throne Room(A) -> Throne Room(B) -> Wharf
-> Wharf
-> Throne Room(B) -> Haven (face down card)
-> Haven (second face down card)


Does the duration Area look like this at the end of your turn:

Throne Room(B) + Wharf + Haven + 2 face down cards (with the TR touching both Wharf and Haven to indicate you get double the effects)

OR

Throne Room(A) + Wharf, Throne Room(B) + Haven + 2 face down cards


Basically does only 1 Throne Room stay in play, because it was the only one that directly modified a duration card, or do 2 stay in play, because there are 2 modified durations cards.

I'm inclined to believe one stays in play.
 
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Mark Diehr
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I think you leave out two throne rooms, to remind you that you have a copied Wharf and a copied Haven.
 
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Josh P.
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Great article on how Throne Room works with the Seaside cards:

http://www.boardgamenews.com/index.php/boardgamenews/comment...
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David desJardins
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jmlsteele wrote:
Basically does only 1 Throne Room stay in play, because it was the only one that directly modified a duration card, or do 2 stay in play, because there are 2 modified durations cards.

No one knows. We're going to have to wait for Donald to get back from Essen.
 
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Ted Vessenes
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I spent some time thinking about this. Mathematically, no matter how you chain Throne Rooms onto Throne Rooms, you will always have exactly one physical Throne Room card to match each physical action card copied. Extra deep chaining just lets you play more cards from a single action. So logically I think you would just set aside one throne room card for each duration card copied, no matter how in the chain it got copied, and discard all others. Of course, this is just my opinion.
 
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Timothy Hunt
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tedv wrote:
I spent some time thinking about this. Mathematically, no matter how you chain Throne Rooms onto Throne Rooms, you will always have exactly one physical Throne Room card to match each physical action card copied. Extra deep chaining just lets you play more cards from a single action. So logically I think you would just set aside one throne room card for each duration card copied, no matter how in the chain it got copied, and discard all others. Of course, this is just my opinion.

And my interpretation is different. Only the throned-throne directly affected the two throned durations, so it should go out with both the durations on top of it, like this.

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Ted Vessenes
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Throne Room is rapidly becoming Dominion's Word of Command.

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Andy Latto
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killer_sss wrote:
Timotheous wrote:
And my interpretation is different. Only the throned-throne directly affected the two throned durations, so it should go out with both the durations on top of it, like this.

Your interpretation brings up the exact situation the rules were meant to avoid. The balance in duration cards is the fact that they don't go back into your deck as fast so if you do get a massive draw engine you won't be able to play all of your durations two turns in a row.
Do you have a statement from Donald that this is the reason the rules are as they are? Personally, I think that playing Duration cards two turns in a row is no more intrinsically unbalancing than playing other powerful cards two turns in a row with a massive draw engine.

I think the reason for the rule is so that there is no need to keep anything in player memory from one turn to the next. Once that decision was made, the cards were then balanced, with this rule in mind, to balance the effects and the cost of the cards.

This is just speculation on my part. I wouldn't use this speculation as a way to conclude issues of rules interpretation.
 
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David desJardins
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killer_sss wrote:
The balance in duration cards is the fact that they don't go back into your deck as fast so if you do get a massive draw engine you won't be able to play all of your durations two turns in a row.

andylatto wrote:
I think the reason for the rule is so that there is no need to keep anything in player memory from one turn to the next. Once that decision was made, the cards were then balanced, with this rule in mind, to balance the effects and the cost of the cards.

I don't think there's any difference between these two views. They are two different ways of saying the same thing. One disadvantage of Duration cards is that they don't cycle back into your deck as quickly, and so they are slightly more powerful overall to balance that disadvantage. Trying to untangle "which came first" is pointless and even meaningless.
 
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Jon Bowker
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I find myself in agreement with Timotheous, and not because I'm trying to find and exploit any loopholes in the rules. The wording of the rules specifically tells you to keep the card that modified the Duration, but only a single Throne Room (which happened to be modified) modified both Durations. The first Throne Room modifies the 2nd Throne Room, not the Durations played by way of the Throned Throne Room.

Although, I also will play by whatever ruling Donald announces if and when it is made. In the meantime, Seaside has been plenty of fun for me by itself and hasn't needed the addition of either base sets yet.
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David K
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Timotheous wrote:
tedv wrote:
I spent some time thinking about this. Mathematically, no matter how you chain Throne Rooms onto Throne Rooms, you will always have exactly one physical Throne Room card to match each physical action card copied. Extra deep chaining just lets you play more cards from a single action. So logically I think you would just set aside one throne room card for each duration card copied, no matter how in the chain it got copied, and discard all others. Of course, this is just my opinion.

And my interpretation is different. Only the throned-throne directly affected the two throned durations, so it should go out with both the durations on top of it, like this.

I believe this to be the logically correct interpretation because, from the DXV article earlier linked:

The Game's Creator wrote:
If you Throne a Duration card, leave out the Throne with the Duration card; it’s tracking the fact that you doubled the Duration card.

When you Throne a Throne Room, you double the throne room. So the FIRST throne room in the chain is not doubling a duration card, but rather it is doubling a Throne Room. Therefore, no matter how many physical copies of throne room you have, the only physical copies of throne room that stay in play are the ones that are doubling duration cards.

HOWEVER, because throne room ITSELF can be doubled, when you determine whether or not to leave a throne room in play, you have to include any copies made from THAT throne room when you consider what it is doubling.

The example above, "Throne Room1, Throne Room2, Merchant Ship, Wharf"

What happens in game terms is:

Player plays TR1. Player chooses TR2 from hand. TR1 states to play TR2 Twice. So, player plays the first TR2 - The physical one - , choosing Merchant Ship, Merchant ship is played twice. Then for the SECOND time playing TR2, player plays TR2 - Non-physical copy- Choosing Wharf.

So it is Only the Second physical throne room (and it's non-physical copy) that is doubling the duration cards, so it is the only Throne Room that stays out. The number of physical copies of throne room you have is NOT relevant.


killer_sss wrote:

In a sense you are modifing a duration with throne room B. The throne room A is modifying throne room B so essentially they are both modifing the durations otherwise you would only need to throne room a throne room and then a single card 4 times which isn't the case.

No. Your incredibly subjective use of "Essentially" has no bearing on this point. I have just outlined what happens in game terms. If Donald wants to come in and say otherwise, I'll listen to him, but you are NOT correct. While the rules mention "Modifying" DXV clarifies to say "doubling" the duration card. Something that modified what is modifying the duration card is NOT covered.
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David K
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To elaborate with examples

Throne Room, Throne Room, Throne Room, Throne Room, Wharf, Merchant Ship, Wharf, Salvager.

What happens:

Play TR1, choosing TR2.
- Play TR2a, Choosing TR3.
-- Play TR3a, Choosing TR4.
--- Play TR4a, choosing Wharf. Play Wharf Twice.
--- Play TR4b Choosing Merchant Ship.Play Merchant Ship Twice.
-- Play TR3b, choosing Wharf. Play Wharf Twice.
- Play TR2b, choosing Salvager. Play Salvager twice.

So Only TRs 3 and 4 stay out with the duration cards, since one copy of 3 is doubling a duration card. However, TR2 does not stay out since neither of the cards that were played with either of its copies were duration cards.

Throne Room1, Throne Room2, Throne Room3, Wharf, Throne Room4, Embargo, Merchant Ship, Lighthouse.

What happens is as follows:

Play TR1, choose TR2.
- Play TR2a, Choose TR3.
-- Play TR3a, choose Wharf. Play Wharf Twice.
-- Play TR3b, Choose TR4.
--- Play TR4a, choose Embargo. Play Embargo Twice.
--- Play Tr4b, choose Merchant ship. Play Merchant Ship twice.
- Play TR2b (finally) choosing Lighthouse. Play lighthouse twice.

So, TR3 stays with Wharf, TR4 stays with Merchant ship, and TR2 stays with Lighthouse.

So if you play only N throne rooms and N Duration cards, you leave N-1 throne rooms out. If there are other action cards besides duration cards in the mix, it could be 1 to 1, but it shouldn't be that hard to keep track.
 
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David K
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killer_sss wrote:

if you throne room a throne room and then two seperate durations you could not possibly modify them both if you had only played the one throne room therefore the second throne room has an indirect effect on the duration.

By that logic, if you play a village to draw into a throne room, and then you throne a duration card, then the village would have to stay out too because you couldn't have played the throne room if you didn't play the village.


killer_sss wrote:
If you throned 4 times as in you example 3 copies would be modifying a duration because you could play a single throne room for the duration and a single one for the non duration card therefore it isn't indirectly modifying a duration.

Look at the example again. Now you're contradicting yourself. Again by your logic above, I would have to leave out all 4 copies of throne room because I wouldn't have been able to play the 3rd one without the second one, which I used to modify a duration card, so TR2 "indirectly," had an effected on the duration action, and then again, wouldn't be able to play the second one without the first one.

EDIT: Also, Yes, a Throned Throne room doesn't let you play 4 copies of a single card. I have absolutely no idea why you think that matters here. It is a totally different question.

 
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Guy Srinivasan
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Bet on which one of your interpretations will match what Donald eventually says.
 
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David K
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killer_sss wrote:


action order throne 1, throne2, throne3, throne4. merchant1, merchant2, merchant3, pirate ship.

use T1 to T2. use T2a for T3. use T2b for T4. Use T3a for M1. Use T3b for M2. Use T4a for M3. Use T4b for PS.

throne4 could have been played by itself since pirate ship isn't a duration and thus either Throne 1 or 2 has no indirect modification of a duration and doesn't need to stay arround to remind the player how many durations he has.

there are different effects but one of the throne rooms is modifying and action and thus doesn't need to stick arround after.

So wait, at first, I thought what you were saying was that ALL the throne rooms, even the ones indirectly modifying a duration had to stay. Reading this it looks like you're saying only 2 of the 4 played throne rooms should have to stay around when there were 3 throned duration cards, which is what I was saying, but for totally different reasons.

What are you Saying anyway?

In any case, The bold part is where your interpretation of what happens in game terms is wrong. Unlike +1 Action, throne room doesn't add a "coupon" for you to play a double action later. You have to resolve action cards as they are played, and each action card in the order of it's text. Throne Room says "Choose an Action card from your hand. Play that card twice." So, if you use T2a for T3, you have to play out all of T3(a and b) before you go back to T2b,. And if you use T3a for T4, you have to complete T4a and b before you move on to assign T3b.

So to Use your notation, what happens in the turn you describe is:

T1, choosing T2. T2a, choosing T3. T3a, choosing T4. T4a Choosing MS1. Play M1a and b. T4b Choosing M2. Play M2a and b. T3b Choosing M3. Play M3a and b. T2b choosing PS, Play PSa and b.

in this case 3 duration cards were played. M1 was played by T4a, M2 was played by T4b, M3 was played by TR3b, so TR4 and 3 stay out, with TR4 touching the first 2 Merchant Ships. And TR3 touching the Third. T1 did not modify any duration cards, and neither did T2.

If you look at my examples, you see how I did not arbitrariy pick how the a and b parts of the chained Throne rooms were assigned, I did it the way it needs to happen.

----

Edited for consistency and a summation.

The short version of the question: When you Have an duration modified by a copy of a Throne Room, do you need to leave out the throne room that created the copy? I say no.
 
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Donald X.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
jmlsteele wrote:
Basically does only 1 Throne Room stay in play, because it was the only one that directly modified a duration card, or do 2 stay in play, because there are 2 modified durations cards.

No one knows. We're going to have to wait for Donald to get back from Essen.
I'm back!

If you Throne Throne Duration Duration, both Thrones stay out.
If you Throne Throne Duration Village, one Throne stays out.

Throne only doubles one card. If you Throne Throne Duration Duration, that 2nd Throne by itself doesn't tell the whole story. You have to leave out both Thrones. The 1st Throne modified the 2nd Throne in order to let it modify two more cards.

I talk about "modifying" as a general term for this, rather than say "Throning," because at one point I thought someday I might do stuff like "play an action, increasing numbers in its text by 2" (which has horrible problems but they're not the point now okay), and that kind of thing works the same way, it has to stay out to track what was modified.

The whole point to leaving out cards at all is to remember what's supposed to happen. The Throne has to stay out because it's part of what's supposed to happen.

Now the Throne Throne Duration Village case is trickier. The 1st Throne let the 2nd Throne double two things, but that no longer matters, because only one of them is still doing anything. So the 1st Throne doesn't stay out.

I realized in time that this double Throne question was not answered in the rulebook, and proposed answering it. The other guys thought it was too esoteric, and well I guess you all showed them.
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Donald X.
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donaldx wrote:
If you Throne Throne Duration Duration, both Thrones stay out.
If you Throne Throne Duration Village, one Throne stays out.

Throne only doubles one card. If you Throne Throne Duration Duration, that 2nd Throne by itself doesn't tell the whole story. You have to leave out both Thrones. The 1st Throne modified the 2nd Throne in order to let it modify two more cards.

I talk about "modifying" as a general term for this, rather than say "Throning," because at one point I thought someday I might do stuff like "play an action, increasing numbers in its text by 2" (which has horrible problems but they're not the point now okay), and that kind of thing works the same way, it has to stay out to track what was modified.

The whole point to leaving out cards at all is to remember what's supposed to happen. The Throne has to stay out because it's part of what's supposed to happen.

Now the Throne Throne Duration Village case is trickier. The 1st Throne let the 2nd Throne double two things, but that no longer matters, because only one of them is still doing anything. So the 1st Throne doesn't stay out.

I realized in time that this double Throne question was not answered in the rulebook, and proposed answering it. The other guys thought it was too esoteric, and well I guess you all showed them.
And another thing!

I think the hypothetical card makes this clearer, so let's look at that one more time.

Say there's a card, Enchant: "Play an Action card. Numbers in its text are increased by 2."

1. Throne Enchant Wharf Wharf. I leave out both Throne and Enchant (and the Wharves). Enchant is enchanting two Wharves, something it normally can't do. Throne is what let it do that. So they are all still relevant.

2. Throne Enchant Wharf Village. I leave out just Enchant and Wharf. Throne let Enchant also modify Village. But that's all done with. The only thing that matters next turn is that my Wharf is Enchanted.
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Dale Yu
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donaldx wrote:

Now the Throne Throne Duration Village case is trickier. The 1st Throne let the 2nd Throne double two things, but that no longer matters, because only one of them is still doing anything. So the 1st Throne doesn't stay out.

I realized in time that this double Throne question was not answered in the rulebook, and proposed answering it. The other guys thought it was too esoteric, and well I guess you all showed them.

well, it was actually "a guy and a girl" that thought it was too esoteric. I hereby stand corrected.

Dale
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David K
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donaldx wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
jmlsteele wrote:
Basically does only 1 Throne Room stay in play, because it was the only one that directly modified a duration card, or do 2 stay in play, because there are 2 modified durations cards.

No one knows. We're going to have to wait for Donald to get back from Essen.
I'm back!

If you Throne Throne Duration Duration, both Thrones stay out.
If you Throne Throne Duration Village, one Throne stays out.

Throne only doubles one card. If you Throne Throne Duration Duration, that 2nd Throne by itself doesn't tell the whole story. You have to leave out both Thrones. The 1st Throne modified the 2nd Throne in order to let it modify two more cards.
-----
The whole point to leaving out cards at all is to remember what's supposed to happen. The Throne has to stay out because it's part of what's supposed to happen.
-----
1. Throne Enchant Wharf Wharf. I leave out both Throne and Enchant (and the Wharves). Enchant is enchanting two Wharves, something it normally can't do. Throne is what let it do that. So they are all still relevant.


Well, $#!%.

Okay, I was wrong. I drew an incorrect conclusion. My bad, Personally, I think the memory issue is solved by leaving 1 Modifier card touching all duration cards it modified.

In your hypothetical, it would not have been intuitive for me to leave the throne room. I would just leave Enchant touching both Wharves, signifying that I get the effect of enchant on both wharves.

Unless you leave the cards touching to show what's modifying what anyway, this seems like it could be at least as messy as my thought. "Hm, Do I get two enchanted wharves or do I get one Throned wharf and one enchanted Wharf?"

Your game, your rules, though. Thanks for being so responsive.
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David desJardins
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Is it always true that if you have N doubled Duration cards on the table, then you will leave out N Throne Rooms along with them, regardless of the order in which the Throne Rooms were played or the "doubling tree" that they formed?
 
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Donald X.
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KhyrosFinalCut wrote:
Well, $#!%.

Okay, I was wrong. I drew an incorrect conclusion. My bad, Personally, I think the memory issue is solved by leaving 1 Modifier card touching all duration cards it modified.

In your hypothetical, it would not have been intuitive for me to leave the throne room. I would just leave Enchant touching both Wharves, signifying that I get the effect of enchant on both wharves.

Unless you leave the cards touching to show what's modifying what anyway, this seems like it could be at least as messy as my thought. "Hm, Do I get two enchanted wharves or do I get one Throned wharf and one enchanted Wharf?"

Your game, your rules, though. Thanks for being so responsive.
I'm there for you guys.

You could handle the tracking lots of ways. You could have counters for it. You could arrange the cards on the table in a way that indicated it. We handle it by leaving the Throne Room out.

Leaving the Throne touching the card it doubled is still good, sure.
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Donald X.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Is it always true that if you have N doubled Duration cards on the table, then you will leave out N Throne Rooms along with them, regardless of the order in which the Throne Rooms were played or the "doubling tree" that they formed?
That sounds right. Future cards could mess this up though.
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