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Dominion: Seaside» Forums » Rules

Subject: Throne room + Duration cards rss

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David desJardins
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donaldx wrote:
You could handle the tracking lots of ways. You could have counters for it. You could arrange the cards on the table in a way that indicated it. We handle it by leaving the Throne Room out.

Sure, but everyone has to do it the same way, because otherwise you get an advantage by not leaving your cards out on the table so you can reshuffle them into your deck more quickly, right?
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David desJardins
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donaldx wrote:
That sounds right. Future cards could mess this up though.

At least it sounds like they will come with an FAQ to explain it.
 
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Steve Duff
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donaldx wrote:
The other guys thought it was too esoteric, and well I guess you all showed them.

Too esoteric? This is BGG, it was guaranteed to come up in the first five minutes. laugh

DaviddesJ wrote:
Sure, but everyone has to do it the same way, because otherwise you get an advantage by not leaving your cards out on the table so you can reshuffle them into your deck more quickly, right?

Yeah. Not a big fan of anyone house ruling this stuff. The rule is leave both out, and that's what everyone should do.

Otherwise you get things like "Yeah, I won a game last night in only X turns, my multiple throne rooms did this and that..." while technically, they played wrong. And then they teach others how to play incorrectly.

I just like a bit more structure.
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Donald X.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
donaldx wrote:
You could handle the tracking lots of ways. You could have counters for it. You could arrange the cards on the table in a way that indicated it. We handle it by leaving the Throne Room out.

Sure, but everyone has to do it the same way, because otherwise you get an advantage by not leaving your cards out on the table so you can reshuffle them into your deck more quickly, right?
Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that people can choose to play it differently, I was just agreeing that the actual solution could have been something different.

You leave Throne Room out. That's what you do.
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Ian Kelly
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killer_sss wrote:
Eh all my time wasted had to get the official ruling from donald something I was trying to avoid especially over something simple.

I wouldn't fret over it. No matter how lucidly you explained your interpretation, other people were going to disagree. This is just an issue that needed a ruling, because the simple fact is that the printed rulebook is ambiguous. I for one would have bet on this going the other way, since the interpretation of "modifying" as meaning "directly modifying" seemed less of a stretch. I'm happy it went the way it did, though, since it's clearly a better rule this way.
 
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Yaron Racah
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KhyrosFinalCut wrote:
Okay, I was wrong. I drew an incorrect conclusion. My bad, Personally, I think the memory issue is solved by leaving 1 Modifier card touching all duration cards it modified.
I don't think you were "wrong". As Donald himself noted, your ruling makes just as much sense as his own - it's not a logic puzzle with one "correct" solution, where all other solutions can be demonstrated to be "incorrect".

KhyrosFinalCut wrote:
In your hypothetical, it would not have been intuitive for me to leave the throne room. I would just leave Enchant touching both Wharves, signifying that I get the effect of enchant on both wharves.
Unless you leave the cards touching to show what's modifying what anyway, this seems like it could be at least as messy as my thought. "Hm, Do I get two enchanted wharves or do I get one Throned wharf and one enchanted Wharf?"
Makes perfect sense to me.

KhyrosFinalCut wrote:
Your game, your rules, though.
Actually, when you play it, it's your game, and you can play with any rules you want (including, of course, the designer's).

UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Yeah. Not a big fan of anyone house ruling this stuff. The rule is leave both out, and that's what everyone should do.
Than perhaps I shouldn't mention that in my group, Chapels can only trash 3 cards? Wouldn't want the House Rule Secret Police to come knocking on my door.
 
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yaron wrote:

KhyrosFinalCut wrote:
Your game, your rules, though.
Actually, when you play it, it's your game, and you can play with any rules you want (including, of course, the designer's).

UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Yeah. Not a big fan of anyone house ruling this stuff. The rule is leave both out, and that's what everyone should do.
Than perhaps I shouldn't mention that in my group, Chapels can only trash 3 cards? Wouldn't want the House Rule Secret Police to come knocking on my door.

You know, the Rio Grande guys took time to think this all out. I think we should respect that

(See: 0:35 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myjCkIZbXw0)
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Yaron Racah
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KhyrosFinalCut wrote:
You know, the Rio Grande guys took time to think this all out. I think we should respect that

I really don't think that changing the rules of a game implies any sort of disrespect for the designers and developers.

FWIW, I think the Dominion team is doing an excellent job of balancing the cards and of creating a smooth play experience. However, game design and development is more art than science, and what works for one group doesn't necessarily work for another. If I can take this great game and turn it into (what for my group would be) an even better game, how can that be a bad idea?

Of course, I rarely do this out of the box. You need to play a game for a while (in some cases, a long while) before you really understand what makes it tick. After some play, though, I estimate that about half of the games seeing regular play in my group are modified in some way. These modifications range from minor tweaks (like the Chapel nerf mentioned above) to major overhauls (like the Citadels variant described in this thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/29094).

KhyrosFinalCut wrote:

Indeed. :-)
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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yaron wrote:
If I can take this great game and turn it into (what for my group would be) an even better game, how can that be a bad idea?

As was mentioned in another thread, having a proliferation of variants can become a nightmare when groups merge, such as when people play at a convention or when someone moves away and joins another group.
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Dave G
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jeffwolfe wrote:
yaron wrote:
If I can take this great game and turn it into (what for my group would be) an even better game, how can that be a bad idea?

As was mentioned in another thread, having a proliferation of variants can become a nightmare when groups merge, such as when people play at a convention or when someone moves away and joins another group.

Amen. Preach it brother Jeff!
 
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Yaron Racah
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jeffwolfe wrote:
yaron wrote:
If I can take this great game and turn it into (what for my group would be) an even better game, how can that be a bad idea?

As was mentioned in another thread, having a proliferation of variants can become a nightmare when groups merge, such as when people play at a convention or when someone moves away and joins another group.

Dunno, I'm sure most people can keep track of which rules are "standard", and which are local variants.

Obviously, a convention will use the rules as printed.

As for merging groups: a year ago, I started attending game nights with another group of gamers, and had a chance to play some sessions of Citadels using the standard rules. It reminded me of why my old group changed them in the first place (downtime...), but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a "nightmare". Then one time, I offered to teach them our variant, and they were willing to try. Some of them didn't like the changes, so they'll probably go back to printed rules, but again, I don't think the experience was nightmarish for anyone...
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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yaron wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
yaron wrote:
If I can take this great game and turn it into (what for my group would be) an even better game, how can that be a bad idea?

As was mentioned in another thread, having a proliferation of variants can become a nightmare when groups merge, such as when people play at a convention or when someone moves away and joins another group.

Dunno, I'm sure most people can keep track of which rules are "standard", and which are local variants.

Obviously, a convention will use the rules as printed.

As for merging groups: a year ago, I started attending game nights with another group of gamers, and had a chance to play some sessions of Citadels using the standard rules. It reminded me of why my old group changed them in the first place (downtime...), but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a "nightmare". Then one time, I offered to teach them our variant, and they were willing to try. Some of them didn't like the changes, so they'll probably go back to printed rules, but again, I don't think the experience was nightmarish for anyone...

Most people don't learn the rules to a game by reading them, they learn the rules by being taught by someone else. Not everyone is careful about pointing out when they are teaching a house rule. Even when they are, not everyone is attentive enough to notice when they are learning a house rule. As rules get passed from person to person, it gets lost that the rule being taught is a house rule. People go to a convention and play the way they were taught, without even realizing that they are cheating.

Or you end up with two rules. I still don't know the rule for farmers in Carcassonne. I don't play very often, so every time I do sit down to a game, I have to ask, "How do you score farmers?"

Just to be clear: I'm not militantly against anyone ever playing a house rule. In the other thread I mentioned before, I said something to the effect of, "I don't like them unless there's a compelling reason for them." There are some games that I will play with house rules, if I think there's a problem with the rules as written. But I always call attention to the fact that we are playing a house rule.

The question asked was, "How can that (playing house rules) be a bad idea?" I have been attempting to address that question. If you know the potential for problems, you can act accordingly to minimize the problems that do occur (and by "you", I mean not only you personally, but others reading this thread as well).
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Dave G
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yaron wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
yaron wrote:
If I can take this great game and turn it into (what for my group would be) an even better game, how can that be a bad idea?

As was mentioned in another thread, having a proliferation of variants can become a nightmare when groups merge, such as when people play at a convention or when someone moves away and joins another group.

Dunno, I'm sure most people can keep track of which rules are "standard", and which are local variants.

Obviously, a convention will use the rules as printed.

As for merging groups: a year ago, I started attending game nights with another group of gamers, and had a chance to play some sessions of Citadels using the standard rules. It reminded me of why my old group changed them in the first place (downtime...), but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a "nightmare". Then one time, I offered to teach them our variant, and they were willing to try. Some of them didn't like the changes, so they'll probably go back to printed rules, but again, I don't think the experience was nightmarish for anyone...

Your anecdote is a scenario that worked out fine for everyone, but that's not always true. Say there's a group out there full of mediocre Dominion players. Someone discovers the "chapel" strategy on BGG and starts decimating the group with it over and over again. Since no one in the group is good enough to figure out how to break the chapel deck, instead they decide to house rule the chapel to say "Trash two cards from your hand" and continue playing regularly. Now one of those players goes to a con and sits down in a Dominion tournament. Not only does he lose badly because his group has stifled all strategic improvement in the game, but he's also probably irritated by the people playing the card correctly, bitching and moaning about how it's broken and people shouldn't be allowed to use it, and ends up ruining the game not only for himself but for everyone who has the misfortune to have to share his table.

It's not that far-fetched, right? So all the equal-turns folks, the chapel editors, the mandatory 4-3 split proponents, the "buy a curse for someone else" idiots, and anyone else who makes up their own rules instead of playing "correctly" runs the risk of making for a miserable time when playing with someone else. Plus, they'll never really develop a finer understanding of the game or the strategies within, and they're costing themselves an opportunity to increase their enjoyment of it by "fixing" something that wasn't really broken.
 
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Joe Deschenes
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killer_sss wrote:
classic example is monopoly. There are so many people that think money on free parking is written in the rulebook because that was how it was taught to them.

The problem with this is it increases luck and it increases length of the game. You can make games pretty much unbareable if you play them incorrectly.

My cousin and I used free parking once with double money for landing on vs passing go. That game took us a full week to complete. The reason being was no matter how much we landed on each other we had so much money we kept passing it back and forth due to the balance of properties that we picked and built on.

It wasn't until one of us made a bad trade that the balance began to slip and the power shifted. At one point the game was 16000 to 15100 and we simply began tracking it thorugh paper instead of physical tokens of cash. Since then we have always used the rules written in the rulebook.

You admit to playing this on the Geek? The nerve!

Most people I've played Monopoly with ignore the auction rule too, but I don't remember if this is an optional rule or not.
 
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Whitney Barnes

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So King's Court + King's Court + 3 durations...?

I guess you leave all 5 out, and just have to remember some other way that all three durations are tripled?
 
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Donald X.
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swbarnes2 wrote:
So King's Court + King's Court + 3 durations...?

I guess you leave all 5 out, and just have to remember some other way that all three durations are tripled?
Yes.

That's exactly what you do.
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Fred Martinson
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What if you King's Court, King's Court, King's Court, Duration, Duration, Duration? Do you leave all 6 out? In the previous example you are somewhat pretending there is another King's Court out for the third Duration but this time you don't have to.
 
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Jon Simantov
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Here's what I'm imagining the play area looking like after the cleanup phase... let me know if this is correct (the top half and bottom half of the image are two totally separate examples).



First example: I played Caravan, Throne Room, Throne Room (via TR), Merchant Ship (via TR 2), Merchant Ship (via TR 2).

Second example: I play Caravan, King's Court, King's Court (via KC), Merchant Ship (via KC 2), Wharf (via KC 2), Merchant Ship (via KC 2)

In both examples, it's obvious that Caravan won't be doubled or tripled, but the other cards will.

If you HAD played three King's Courts, I imagine you would be required to leave all 3 with each of the 3 tripled durations, right? Whether you played (KC, KC, KC, Duration, Duration, Duration) or (KC, KC, Duration, Duration, KC, Duration), either way, all three King's Courts "touched" at least one Duration in the chain, right?
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Donald X.
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Masquerade wrote:
What if you King's Court, King's Court, King's Court, Duration, Duration, Duration? Do you leave all 6 out? In the previous example you are somewhat pretending there is another King's Court out for the third Duration but this time you don't have to.
Yes, leave out one King's Court per tripled card in the cases where you can actually do so.

Edit: Scratch that; see http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/5394670#5394670
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David desJardins
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Is there a general rule that can be stated?

Suppose I play:

King's Court
King's Court (tripled)
Caravan (tripled)
Caravan (tripled)
Caravan (tripled)
King's Court
Market (tripled)

and that's the end of my action phase. All of the Caravans are tripled. Now do I leave out all of the King's Courts, even though the third one was played after all of the Caravans?

Or, reverse the order. Suppose I play King's Court, Market, King's Court, King's Court, Caravan, Caravan, Caravan. Does that change the answer?
 
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Donald X.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Is there a general rule that can be stated?

Suppose I play:

King's Court
King's Court (tripled)
Caravan (tripled)
Caravan (tripled)
Caravan (tripled)
King's Court
Market (tripled)

and that's the end of my action phase. All of the Caravans are tripled. Now do I leave out all of the King's Courts, even though the third one was played after all of the Caravans?

Or, reverse the order. Suppose I play King's Court, Market, King's Court, King's Court, Caravan, Caravan, Caravan. Does that change the answer?
I am just trying to interpret the pre-existing rule; I have never had this situation come up or considered it. I have King's Courted duration cards, and King's Courted King's Court, but I haven't King's Courted a King's Court and then King's Courted a duration card with that one.

If you King's Court a Market, it goes away at end of turn. We don't leave it out just as a handy thing for tracking something else that happened that turn.

If you King's Court a duration card, that stays out, via the rule from Seaside. If you King's Court a King's Court, that also stays out, in the case where there's anything left to track in that chain.

The only difference from Throne Room is that you may not end up with enough King's Courts to track everything. Try to use the layout to keep track, that's my advice.
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David desJardins
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donaldx wrote:
The only difference from Throne Room is that you may not end up with enough King's Courts to track everything. Try to use the layout to keep track, that's my advice.

I'm surprised this wasn't considered. It was certainly on my mind during playtesting. Maybe I should have said something.

There is another difference, because you can mix Throne Rooms and King's Courts. E.g.,

Throne Room
King's Court
Caravan
Caravan

In this case, I'm guessing that you leave out all four cards, even though the Caravans are both tripled.

My interpretation of the rule:

Leave out as many Throne Rooms and King's Courts as there are Duration cards that they affected, either directly or indirectly through a chain of playing one such card to affect another. If fewer, then leave out as many as possible.

Within that set, choose as many King's Courts as you have tripled Duration cards, and as many Throne Rooms as you have doubled Duration cards, if possible.
 
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Fred Martinson
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donaldx wrote:
If you King's Court a duration card, that stays out, via the rule from Seaside. If you King's Court a King's Court, that also stays out, in the case where there's anything left to track in that chain.

The only difference from Throne Room is that you may not end up with enough King's Courts to track everything. Try to use the layout to keep track, that's my advice.

Before I first encountered this thread long ago I would never have even considered leaving two Throne Rooms out after playing Throne, Throne, Duration, Duration. I still don't see how the rules in Seaside tell you to do that. The same Throne is used to play both Durations so it seems like only that Throne should be left in play. Honestly, other than the specific example in the rules, I don't see why you would leave a Throne in play ever since it is no longer doing anything other than helping you remember. Nothing helps you remember how many actions you've used up with Feasts or gained with Mining Villages that you've trashed and nothing helps you remember how many Possessions you played no matter how many turns it has been since you played them.
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Donald X.
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Masquerade wrote:
Before I first encountered this thread long ago I would never have even considered leaving two Throne Rooms out after playing Throne, Throne, Duration, Duration. I still don't see how the rules in Seaside tell you to do that. The same Throne is used to play both Durations so it seems like only that Throne should be left in play. Honestly, other than the specific example in the rules, I don't see why you would leave a Throne in play ever since it is no longer doing anything other than helping you remember. Nothing helps you remember how many actions you've used up with Feasts or gained with Mining Villages that you've trashed and nothing helps you remember how many Possessions you played no matter how many turns it has been since you played them.
The first Throne "played" the second Throne, which played the other cards. Since the second Throne stayed out, the first Throne should. The rules actually just say "if you play or modify a Duration card with another card," not, "if you play or modify a Duration card, or a card that played or modified a Duration card," but that's the way we're doing it. And the reason is to provide as much tracking as possible.
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Donald X.
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Also I personally put Mining Village near the trash, but not in it, while I finish my turn, to remind me that I trashed one. The rules recommend counting actions out loud, which takes care of Feast, but you can really only count one thing out loud, so you need something else reminding you about those +$2 coins Mining Village gave you.

Extra turns from Possessions, man, people are not forgetting how many of those are coming.

In any case, Throne Room is available to track the Duration cards that were Throned. If there's a situation where something should be tracked, and there's something available to track it, I track it with that!
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