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Subject: Reed/Stone/Wood Buyer Rule Quirks rss

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Bryann Turner
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Reed Buyer:

Is activated when a player receives reeds at the
start of the round, for example because of the
Reed Pond E48, or when any other improvement
or occupation is used to get reeds.


Stone Buyer:

Is activated when a player receives stone at the
start of the round, for example because of the
Stone Cart K142, or when any other improvement
or occupation is used to get stone.

Wood Buyer:

Is not activated when a player receives wood at
the start of a round, during the harvest (Copse
I78, Forester K278), or during another player’s
turn because of Spinney I80, Charcoal Burner
E182, Wood Buyer I234, or Fencer I264.



This is inconsistent. Why can the Reed and Stone Buyer buy Reed and Stone at the beginning of the round but the Wood Buyer cannot? IMO none of the Buyers should be able to buy resources at the beginning of the round.

Additionally, the Wood Buyer has a [ruling] saying that it can only be used once per round? Where does this ruling come from?

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Geoff Burkman
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I agree with you, Bryann; I see no reason that any of the Buyers should be able to snitch the relevent goods that another player receives at the beginning of a Round. That said, if there's an offical ruling by the powers-that-be that such acquisition is legal, then ALL the buyers should be able to thereby take advantage.

And I see absolutely NO reason that the Wood Buyer's ability should be limited to once per Round. The Stone and Reed Buyer cards are quite specific in this limitation; the Wood Buyer's card is NOT.

And I would very much like to know how the Wood Buyer can be activated by some other player using the Wood Buyer. How, pray tell, does that occur?
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Mike T
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Quote:
And I see absolutely NO reason that the Wood Buyer's ability should be limited to once per Round. The Stone and Reed Buyer cards are quite specific in this limitation; the Wood Buyer's card is NOT.


I wasn't aware of this ruling, and haven't played with it. In my opinion, the Wood Buyer certainly doesn't need to be weakened thus. He's only a powerful card in conjunction with the right combo (Wood Buyer + Wood Distributor + Berry Picker = strong).
 
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Carl Olson
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btizo wrote:
Reed Buyer:

Is activated when a player receives reeds at the
start of the round, for example because of the
Reed Pond E48, or when any other improvement
or occupation is used to get reeds.


Stone Buyer:

Is activated when a player receives stone at the
start of the round, for example because of the
Stone Cart K142, or when any other improvement
or occupation is used to get stone.

Wood Buyer:

Is not activated when a player receives wood at
the start of a round, during the harvest (Copse
I78, Forester K278), or during another player’s
turn because of Spinney I80, Charcoal Burner
E182, Wood Buyer I234, or Fencer I264.



This is inconsistent. Why can the Reed and Stone Buyer buy Reed and Stone at the beginning of the round but the Wood Buyer cannot? IMO none of the Buyers should be able to buy resources at the beginning of the round.

Additionally, the Wood Buyer has a [ruling] saying that it can only be used once per round? Where does this ruling come from?



Both Reed Buyer and Stone Buyer use "taken" on the card. According to Hanno's ruling, they cannot buy except when the Reed or Stone are physically on the action space. Wood Buyer is problematical because it says "receives" but also says "from an action".

That would mean that none of them can buy at the start of the turn, because no one is "taking" or "acting" at that time, which makes sense to me also. Although the resource may be physically on the action space as a reminder, technically, the resource is being "received" from the general supply.

However, it means that Reed Buyer functions for the RSW space in the 5-p game, but not for RSF in the 4-p game, and Stone Buyer functions for neither one. I suppose you could make a rule that says that the three Buyers can only be used if there is a chance that more than one item is actually taken from the space. That way the buyer can't completely negate another player's action. It would stop others from using the 1 Stone, 1 Reed and 1 Wood spaces until they accumulated more than one, but I don't see that being too out of line with a number of similar cards.

 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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Reed Buyer:
Whenever reed is taken for the first time in a round, ...

Stone Buyer:
Whenever stone is taken for the first time in a round,

Wood Buyer:
Whenever another player receives wood from an action,

btizo wrote:
This is inconsistent. Why can the Reed and Stone Buyer buy Reed and Stone at the beginning of the round but the Wood Buyer cannot?

Because the card texts are inconsistent. The ruling on the Wood Buyer is consistent with all other "receive from action" cards; the one on reed and stone buyer is consistent with all "take" cards.

Quote:
Additionally, the Wood Buyer has a [ruling] saying that it can only be used once per round? Where does this ruling come from?

No, only once each turn. The ruling is a reaction to this question.

MisterG wrote:
And I would very much like to know how the Wood Buyer can be activated by some other player using the Wood Buyer. How, pray tell, does that occur?

You should read better. The ruling is: the Wood Buyer can not be activated by another player's Wood Buyer. I don't think anyone in their right mind could disagree with that.

(It's a copy/paste error, of course...)

Note that it's likely that I will revisit, and change where needed, all my rulings on cards activated by "receiving" and "taking" things, because of this notification by Hanno.
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Frederic Bush
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pijll wrote:

MisterG wrote:
And I would very much like to know how the Wood Buyer can be activated by some other player using the Wood Buyer. How, pray tell, does that occur?

You should read better. The ruling is: the Wood Buyer can not be activated by another player's Wood Buyer. I don't think anyone in their right mind could disagree with that.


I think Geoff is asking how two people can have the Wood Buyer in play at the same time. The answer, I think, is that there's a new Czech deck card that lets you copy someone else's occupation.
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Bryann Turner
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The problem is that the Reed Pond and Stone Cart use the word "receive" while the Buyers use the word "take" which to me means from an action during the round. I really dislike all the buyers on principle, but being able to buy before I take an action is really quite lame,
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Carl Olson
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btizo wrote:
The problem is that the Reed Pond and Stone Cart use the word "receive" while the Buyers use the word "take" which to me means from an action during the round. I really dislike all the buyers on principle, but being able to buy before I take an action is really quite lame,


I share your dislike for the Buyers.

Below is Hanno's quote for reference, for those who do not want to look it up. I interpreted it to mean that you could only "take" if the good accumulated on the space, or an accumulated resource was moved onto the space by the Wood Distributor or something similar.

The items you "receive" at the start of the turn technically come from the general supply, even though they are placed on the board for record-keeping. Therefore, I don't believe you are "taking" the items and therefore the buyers should not be able to buy anything at the start of the turn.

Otherwise, the Buyers are like mini-Tasters. You paid for something, but I'm not going to let you get any of it. Bogus.

Quote:
First of all, please not the difference between taking and receiving.
TAKE means that the resource actually is physically on that space.
RECEIVE means that some funny effects tells you to get that resource from supply.

Unfortunately, this is not always correct on the translated cards.
Therefore, use this a your rule of hand:

The Wood Cart works on:
* spaces with an "arrow" that gets new wood evry upkeep
* spaces that got wood token through some other effect, for example wood distributor

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Mike T
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However, it means that Reed Buyer functions for the RSW space in the 5-p game, but not for RSF in the 4-p game, and Stone Buyer functions for neither one. I suppose you could make a rule that says that the three Buyers can only be used if there is a chance that more than one item is actually taken from the space. That way the buyer can't completely negate another player's action. It would stop others from using the 1 Stone, 1 Reed and 1 Wood spaces until they accumulated more than one, but I don't see that being too out of line with a number of similar cards.


As much as I dislike all the buyers, I've always understood the RSF as potentially activating them. I don't think they are overpowered with this understanding, and I don't think the card texts (as translated) justify a strong distinction between reed from RSF and reed from the Reed square.
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Geoff Burkman
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smcmike wrote:
As much as I dislike all the buyers, I've always understood the RSF as potentially activating them. I don't think they are overpowered with this understanding, and I don't think the card texts (as translated) justify a strong distinction between reed from RSF and reed from the Reed square.


I absolutely agree, and this is the way my crew has always played.

Personally, I consider all three of the Buyers to be near-worthless cards for the most part. Yes, there are isolated incidences when they can prove useful, sort of. In a recent 5-player game (which I'll probably get around to posting one of these days), Ron used the Stone Buyer to snipe the RSW space, in combo with a play of the Stone Exchange, and then used his ill-gotten gains to pick up the Well early in Stage Two. Good for him, but at what cost? He essentially paid three actions (ocking the Stone Buyer, buttoning the Stone Exchange, and then MIMIing the Well) plus a food (for one snipe hunt) to gain four points and five food. Net gain: one extra point over the expected three for the three actions, and a cumulative 4food. Wow! In the meantime, he'd unnecessarily neglected expanding his hut and growing his family, and finished with a score of 30, based on 33 primary actions. Not too swift. He ended up sniping stone three more times, and managed to gain a 3-room stone hut and the Joinery. That's pain in action, my friends, pain in action.

The Buyers, much like the deceptive Pieceworker, are barely worth the cardstock they're printed on.
 
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Carl Olson
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smcmike wrote:
Quote:
However, it means that Reed Buyer functions for the RSW space in the 5-p game, but not for RSF in the 4-p game, and Stone Buyer functions for neither one. I suppose you could make a rule that says that the three Buyers can only be used if there is a chance that more than one item is actually taken from the space. That way the buyer can't completely negate another player's action. It would stop others from using the 1 Stone, 1 Reed and 1 Wood spaces until they accumulated more than one, but I don't see that being too out of line with a number of similar cards.


As much as I dislike all the buyers, I've always understood the RSF as potentially activating them. I don't think they are overpowered with this understanding, and I don't think the card texts (as translated) justify a strong distinction between reed from RSF and reed from the Reed square.


I don't think the Buyers are over-powered, and this RSW/RSF interpretation is very reasonable.

I wasn't actually trying to make a statement about what the rule should be, but merely pointing out that trying to make one part of the card texts consistent made another group of phrases inconsistent. Sorry for the confusion.

OTOH if the Buyers could take the resources laid out at the start of the turn, *that* would make them obnoxious.
 
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Chen Goh
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MisterG wrote:



The Buyers, much like the deceptive Pieceworker, are barely worth the cardstock they're printed on.



Geoff, I have to politely disagree. While I do not share as much love for the Reed or Stone buyer, I think the Wood buyer is a decent card which gets played more often than not. IMO, the trick isn't to play it early , but instead to get your food engine up first, then play the wood buyer by mid game , say stage 3.

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Frederic Bush
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The pieceworker also lets you save actions by buying grain and veg, so it's pretty useful if you have a good food engine.
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Kevin Brown
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carlj wrote:
That would mean that none of them can buy at the start of the turn, because no one is "taking" or "acting" at that time, which makes sense to me also. Although the resource may be physically on the action space as a reminder, technically, the resource is being "received" from the general supply.


Don't those cards tell you to place the resources on the round spaces?
 
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Geoff Burkman
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mattgoh88 wrote:
MisterG wrote:

The Buyers, much like the deceptive Pieceworker, are barely worth the cardstock they're printed on.


Geoff, I have to politely disagree. While I do not share as much love for the Reed or Stone buyer, I think the Wood buyer is a decent card which gets played more often than not. IMO, the trick isn't to play it early , but instead to get your food engine up first, then play the wood buyer by mid game , say stage 3.


Point well taken. Still, as you may or may not have gathered by posts I've made elsewhere on this board (primarily my review of the game, as well as various comments in my session reports), I hew pretty closely to the FEATS/FAP algorithm (Food Expended = Actions Taken = Score/ Food = Actions = Points), and that tells me that the various Buyers and the Pieceworker are very pricey Occupations to use. That price is technically lower in the early Rounds (when actions cost less food), but it's still pricey. They are situationally useful at best, imho.

But I do still see where you're coming from.
 
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Geoff Burkman
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fbush555 wrote:
The pieceworker also lets you save actions by buying grain and veg, so it's pretty useful if you have a good food engine.


Also point well taken. In the Pieceworker's case, grain and veggies are admittedly better deals, veggies being less so due to the increased cost. And as you mention, it's really only effective if you have surplus food to spend.
 
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Carl Olson
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pilight wrote:
carlj wrote:
That would mean that none of them can buy at the start of the turn, because no one is "taking" or "acting" at that time, which makes sense to me also. Although the resource may be physically on the action space as a reminder, technically, the resource is being "received" from the general supply.


Don't those cards tell you to place the resources on the round spaces?


Yes. But those items aren't "taken" when other resources are taken, nor are they taken the same way. I consider them to be in the general supply until you receive them, and the things on the board are just markers to help you remember to take them.

If you allow the buyer to work in Phase 1, and you are to receive 1 Wood for 5 turns, you could lose 100% of what you already have paid for, and the Buyer can choose to play kingmaker. That's what I meant by "obnoxious".

If the "Buying" is limited to the accumulating spaces, including RSF and RSW, during the work phase, you can control what you get and lose by not taking 1 Stone, Wood, or Reed, but waiting until there are at least two on the space. Annoying, but not as crippling to the target.

If an interpretation could be used to ruin a game for a player, I tend to regard it as a bad interpretation and pick another one.
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Jonathan Lee
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I had a quick question; thought this might be related.

I believe I had the Stone Buyer card the other night, along with a cooking hearth, a sheep, and no food on the table.

If a player decides to take a stone, can I then decide to slaughter my lone sheep for food in order to buy the player's stone? Or must I already have food on the table before he makes his move?
 
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Bryann Turner
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You can slaughter at any time. So yes.
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