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Subject: House rule against Defenders win with letting in Invader. rss

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Aleksander Kopeć
Poland
Gdańsk
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This is my answer to Defenders "cheesy" strategy to let Invader enter the tronghold on purpose (usually in 6th turn). I hope I will be clear enough:

If Invaders strength advantage that manages him to capture the stronghold is 5 or higher, Invader recieve additional 1 glory point; If his advantege is 10 or higher he recieve 2 glory points.

example 1: Defender has one marksman and one wall component. His strength is 1+1=2. Invader has one goblin, two orcs and one troll. His strength is 1+2+2+3=8. Invaders advantage is 6. marksmen dies and Invader break into stronghold with remaining advantage of 5. He recieve 3 glory points for breaking into the stronghold and 1 glory point for 5+ advantage.

exampe 2: Defender leaves wall section unguarded, with two wall components. His strength is 1+1=2. Invader has one goblin and three trolls. His strength is 1+3+3+3=10. Because defender retreated his units, Invader breaks into the stronghold. His advantage is 10, because no units get killed. Invader recieve 3 glory points for breaking into the stronghold and 2 points for 10+ advantage.

With this rule Defender cannot just leave wall section empty or barely guarded and win. It is still possible, but not so obvious.

I'm not 100% sure if it will work flawlessly, but I'm curious what do you think about it.
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Mark Chaplin
United Kingdom
Nottingham
Ice-choked tower, Mondavia, Nanglangka.
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Interesting idea you have.

I can see that this "problem" with the game will dog its every move. Not having played the game, I can't say how things will pan out; but it does seem counter-intuitive to let the invading hordes in.

Victory conditions set around "the great untold story of the siege" strike me as a slight cop-out. For a keep-the-mewling-masses-out-game, it seems a bit crappy that you can win by letting them in!

Just my two gold coins.
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Daniel Edwards
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If you really need a variant I would suggest instead just allowing the invader to elect not to breach and end the game if it would give the defender the win.
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Aleksander Kopeć
Poland
Gdańsk
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I was trying to make rule corresponding with game theme. Not entering empty walls is easy solution, but also on the same basis as "let them in and win!" it kills siege climate. "Hey, no one is defending here, but we will wait! God knows why."
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Chris Hinkes
United States
New York
New York
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They're waiting because all those solders are planning an ambush in the courtyard! Best wait for friends before going in.
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Roy Opitz
Germany
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The problem will not be reduced by the houserule because a good Defender will not leave the wall empty knowing that the Invaders wins. The defender will let the invader in with a little defense so that the invader will not get an advantage an so some glory points. It is too easy to loose the fight on a wall by only one or two points.
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carsten bohn
Germany
Marburg
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This is really a problem of the game.
Yesterday i played against my 8 year old son and in the end of round 6, after i finished phase 6, he said: "I'll win because i let you in"
So he moved away his troops and... Game Over!

I never thought about this before because i always played the invader but this seems not to be very fair i think. Is there any better idea to work around with this situation?

 
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Aleksander Kopeć
Poland
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NecroButcher wrote:
The problem will not be reduced by the houserule because a good Defender will not leave the wall empty knowing that the Invaders wins. The defender will let the invader in with a little defense so that the invader will not get an advantage an so some glory points. It is too easy to loose the fight on a wall by only one or two points.


yes, but at the same time you can't use retreated units to reinforce other wall sections. If invader put pressure only on one wall section, then he deserve to loose devil, but if he is able to break on many walls and defender leave empty section receiving the most devastating blow to move units and deny break on other sections THEN there is something wrong.

but this is all theorycrafting, because I still have no time to test it, so I'm not saying your point is invalid.
 
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Mike Lee
Canada
Vancouver
British Columbia
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I have this game but have not played it yet. Can someone explain to me more specifically how you can win the game as the defender by letting the invader come in?
 
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Wiktor Pucek
Poland
Warsaw
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For breaking to the castle the invader gets 3 points. For every additional wall section he breach he gets 1 point more.

So in 6 turn there is 9 to 5 for the defender (not always, but without any other actions). If the defender let him break in on one wall section he wins 9 to 8.
But on the next turn invader can move his troops to few others wall section and breach them. in 7 turn there is 11 to 4 (with guards on their position). Invader can move to 7 wall sections right now (one additional point) breach in for example in 4 wall section and put 4 trolls on one wall section (1 extra point) so now invader wins 12 to 11.

If the defender knows that, he just let him in in 6 turn on one wall section and wins.


As an invader you have to plan all the time. You cant go just on one wall section in 6 or 7 turn. If you do this and you lose, that means you had bad tactic. Thats all.
 
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James Boyle
United States
Arkansas
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After numerous games last week at BGGCON, I've decided this houserule is unneccessary. Neither side has a pronounced advantage once both players are familiar with the rules. I really enjoy the reason this houserule is neccesary... basically that the attacker was forced to end the game a turn early and LOST because of it. That's hilarious... does the attacker think he could overcome the burgeoning defenders bonus glory point advantage that STARTS turn 6 once the Guard of Honor kicks in. Your opponent basically let you into the Stronghold to end the game after having soundly beaten you during the first 5 turns. Continuing a game at that point is, well... pointless anyway. This 'Cheesy' manuever was just a kind way of saying 'You Loose, wanna play again?'

I would suggest spending more time examining your strategy rather than changing game rules in order to be able to beat a worthy opponent.
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Alexander
Greece
Athens
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I dont think that the game needs fix as far as i can tell from the 4 games i played till now, the game is great as it is,
An idea i have and maybe i ll play with it in the future just to see how it works, is that the invader needs to break into 2 wall sections for the game to end (one entry is not enough the defender can handle it)
but as soon as a 2nd break happens the game ends(the defenders are surrounded in courtyard all hope is lost) and maybe the 1st entry gives 2gp and the 2nd also 2gp to the invader so the 2 breaks are 4gp total.(like the normal rules 3+1),each other break into walls beyond the 2 are 1gp each.
it seems like a good variant to me but i havent check it.
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aaron belmer
United States
Webster Groves
St Louis
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In keeping with the theme, I think one break is enough (have you seen the box art, that's a lotta baddies)

I don't think that the game needs to be fixed yet, as long as everyone knows the rules and knows 'about this situation'.

However for those that feel a houserule is needed. I vote:

If you breach the stronghold, you're awarded 5 points. No extras for extra walls.
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