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Subject: Stop the whining, please ! rss

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Kenneth Lury
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To all of you whiners out there, What is the big problem ? If you want to learn and play the game, do so. If not, don't.

There is an index at the front of the rule book. I do not have any problem finding what I need.

I did not learn to ride a bike in one hour
I did not learn to sail in one hour
I did not learn to ski in one hour
I did not learn my profession in one hour


While I don't think a board game should be as difficult to learn as the above items, what worthwhile endeavor can be learned in a few minutes ?

Give Ben and the rest of us a break.
Everyone on BGG that has answered my questions had to learn and it is a good feeling to turn around and answer other player's questions. This is part of the challenge, fun and camaraderie.

Yes, a rules rewrite with more examples would be great, but to cover every possible situation the rulebook would be hundreds of pages long and then everyone would complain about now long it is.

In my opinion, discussions about tactics, strategy and historicity would be far more interesting and beneficial.

That is my 4 cents.

Addendum: Need to mention the fact that the designer just returned from overseas military duty (reservist) after being yanked away from his life and while he was there he still took time to answer our questions.
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John Di Ponio
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radsailor wrote:

In my opinion, discussions about tactics, strategy and historicity would be far more interesting and beneficial.



Hey a great idea! Stick to that if you are unhappy with people voicing their opinions about the game! Hmmm....seems similar to all the questions that were fielded about UP FRONT rules. I was always happy to explain what I knew to others. I never called anyone 'whiners' for not understanding the concepts or rules...they were very new at the time.
This game has a lot of new concepts and is pretty abstract! I have had difficulty grasping the finer points of the game in order to play the game CORRECTLY and I thnk that is all that anyone is trying to do. I do keep trying but I am one that would like to see a revised rule book.

Quote:
Addendum: Need to mention the fact that the designer just returned from overseas military duty (reservist) after being yanked away from his life and while he was there he still took time to answer our questions.

What this shows is how one believes in the game and his passion for it!!! I am very proud of anyone that serves our country.....I think that they should all be over here protecting our borders...but that is another issue for another day!


Don't get too frustrated...the game will more accepted and learned as time goes on....Up Front was the same way!!!!

Keep the faith Kenneth...all will be good!!!!
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Donal Hegarty
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Having worked on the art, I have had longer than most to get a handle on this game (other than the playtesters and Ben obviously)
I still have not got my head around it. But It has a shape in my mind now. I suspect if I had been a serving officer in my younger days it would come together faster. But man, am I hooked. It is unlike any wargame i have every played. It is the only game that has ever given me what i believe to be a sense of leading, and commanding men. As a manager myself I have some sense of what it is like, although I have never been shot at.

If you want something easy. This is not it. If you want a hex and counter, D6 Combat chart game, this isn't it either.
this isn't combat Commander or Band of Heroes or ASL. It is different.

If you want to see where the hobby can go. this is it.
If you want something you have to master not just rinse and repeat. This is it.

it is an acquired taste. A challenge. A new thought. This is why I wargame.
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WAN CHIU
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Once I get a hang of the rules, I will play this sucker A LOT to justify the time spent on studying! Maybe the Army should consider this part of the officer training curriculum.

Anybody in the Los Angeles area feels like teaching it?

 
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Mike Windsor
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Just to clarify, is it whining to say that the rules were written and put together in a way that may have hindered some people's understanding of the game? Or would it be whining to say that, although I had a high degree of interest in the topic, I traded-away my copy due to my calculation of the cost-benefit analysis, particularly in light of the apparent lack of progress I was making in understanding the game? Or would it be whining to say that if the rules are being re-done (which is apparently in the works -- either by the designer or the community), I might re-purchase FoF (a somewhat expensive proposition) or purchase its sucessor?

Just want to clarify; hate to be thought of as a whiner.
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Christoph Haeberling
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I am not whining as well. And I also hate to be called like that. I only declare that this game is not finished and by no means complete. I repeat what I said in another thread: when I buy a game with my hard earned money I do expect to understand the rules right out of the box and I do expect some useful examples of play and I do expect nice components but I do not expect to be obliged to have an internet connection.
For clarification: I do not blame Ben Hull for his work. It is fantastic! I blame GMT for not doing its homework. Call it standards or whatever you want.
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Kenneth Lury
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I never called anyone 'whiners' for not understanding the concepts or rules...they were very new at the time.
I am not calling people whiners for not understanding the rules. I am calling them whiners for spending energy complaining about how they would really like to buy/play the game if only the rules were somehow magically easier to understand.
The rules are not going to be easy to learn because they model a very complex process. That does not make them bad, just difficult.

I really have little experience with war board games and no experience with the military. However, I wanted to learn and play the game, so I did. I am still learning, but more importantly I am playing.

Here is an example of something I thought "whine worthy": After months of playing through about 1/4 of the full campaign of Silent War, the rule about when to return to base was "clarified" to such an extent that I had to scrap the campaign and start again. This clarification occurred about two years after the game was released and still is not in the official errata on the web site. Of course no one forced me to start again. My choice. Just like Fields of Fire.

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John Di Ponio
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I totally agree with Kenneth's statement above!!!
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Andreas Krüger
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Quote:
There is an index at the front of the rule book


Really? I must look again.... blush

But please don't disappoint me: I am looking for an alpabetically organized index with all important keywords - If I look up "grenade", I can find all pages with this word. Is it there?
 
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Chris Franka
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This is the universal debate about most arguments here on BGG (and why I try so very hard to stay out of them). There's no right answer. What's whining to one person is expressing a valid opinion or honest frustration to another person. Different people will see it different ways.

The problem is, when you start your post with "To all you whiners out there," that's insulting to your intended audience (whoever you see as the "whiners") as well as gives the impression that you don't care that you're insulting your intended audience. Those people are not necessarily malcontents or trolls, they're also BGG users like you who are expressing frustration. Undeniably, you're calling someone whiners, presumably those who have posted in the past in these game forums about their frustration with the rules.

I think your point has merit. The game may indeed be able to be learned with perseverance, and that there's a very enjoyable game for those who, in your opinion, make a reasonable effort to learn it.

But I've seen enough posts that I also don't think that those who are frustrated by the rules are simply whining, or simply people who want the game spoon-fed to them, or people who don't want to put in any time at all to learn the game. In fact, I bet a large portion of the intended audience for this game is people who LIKE to pore through rulebooks and enjoy attention to detail, not people who moan and stomp their feet when any rulebook isn't short and straightforward. It's a wargame, after all. One of my good friends has this game and he raves about it, but he also thinks the rules are poorly organized and difficult to learn from. And I find that information useful. I'm glad that people have posted several times that they find the rules difficult to learn from. It gives me a better idea of what to expect if I were to purchase the game (which, if you check my wish list, is one I'd eventually like to get). I also get the idea from you that any difficulty with the rules should not be considered a reason not to get the game, and I'm glad to hear your side of the issue as well. Seriously.

But you could be a bit less confrontational in the way you phrase your opinion, don't you think? I think both sides are valid, and I'm glad everyone posts their opinions--to me, it's not whining, it's simply getting both sides of the argument.

[edit for grammar]
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Kenneth Lury
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
Quote:
There is an index at the front of the rule book


Really? I must look again.... blush

But please don't disappoint me: I am looking for an alpabetically organized index with all important keywords - If I look up "grenade", I can find all pages with this word. Is it there?


No, it is not alphabetical and not it is not that detailed. Sorry.
 
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Kenneth Lury
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bigtex01 wrote:
This is the universal debate about most arguments here on BGG (and why I try so very hard to stay out of them). There's no right answer. What's whining to one person is expressing a valid opinion or honest frustration to another person. Different people will see it different ways.

The problem is, when you start your post with "To all you whiners out there," that's insulting to your intended audience (whoever you see as the "whiners") as well as gives the impression that you don't care that you're insulting your intended audience. Those people are not necessarily malcontents or trolls, they're also BGG users like you who are expressing frustration. Undeniably, you're calling someone whiners, presumably those who have posted in the past in these game forums about their frustration with the rules.

I think your point has merit. The game may indeed be able to be learned with perseverance, and that there's a very enjoyable game for those who, in your opinion, make a reasonable effort to learn it.

But I've seen enough posts that I also don't think that those who are frustrated by the rules are simply whining, or simply people who want the game spoon-fed to them, or people who don't want to put in any time at all to learn the game. In fact, I bet a large portion of the intended audience for this game is people who LIKE to pore through rulebooks and enjoy attention to detail, not people who moan and stomp their feet when any rulebook isn't short and straightforward. It's a wargame, after all. One of my good friends has this game and he raves about it, but he also thinks the rules are poorly organized and difficult to learn from. And I find that information useful. I'm glad that people have posted several times that they find the rules difficult to learn from. It gives me a better idea of what to expect if I were to purchase the game (which, if you check my wish list, is one I'd eventually like to get). I also get the idea from you that any difficulty with the rules should not be considered a reason not to get the game, and I'm glad to hear your side of the issue as well. Seriously.

But you could be a bit less confrontational in the way you phrase your opinion, don't you think? I think both sides are valid, and I'm glad everyone posts their opinions--to me, it's not whining, it's simply getting both sides of the argument.

[edit for grammar]


All points well taken and well expressed. I did not mean to offend and I apologize to any so offended.
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Gene Baker
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Games with dragons, spaceships, and bears aren’t wargames. Call them conquest games or strategy games or crap but they aren’t wargames.
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radsailor wrote:
Thamos von Nostria wrote:
Quote:
There is an index at the front of the rule book


Really? I must look again.... blush

But please don't disappoint me: I am looking for an alpabetically organized index with all important keywords - If I look up "grenade", I can find all pages with this word. Is it there?


No, it is not alphabetical and not it is not that detailed. Sorry.


Its also not an Index. Its called a Table of Contents.

I will continue holding out for a rule rewrite prior to buying.
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Kenneth Lury
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gbaker59 wrote:
radsailor wrote:
Thamos von Nostria wrote:
Quote:
There is an index at the front of the rule book


Really? I must look again.... blush

But please don't disappoint me: I am looking for an alpabetically organized index with all important keywords - If I look up "grenade", I can find all pages with this word. Is it there?


No, it is not alphabetical and not it is not that detailed. Sorry.


Its also not an Index. Its called a Table of Contents.

I will continue holding out for a rule rewrite prior to buying.


Obviously your choice. You are missing out on a great gaming experience. I guess there are a few other games out there that will keep you busy until then. Seems like more and more solitaire games are coming out which is great for a solo player like me.
 
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Martin Gallo
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radsailor wrote:
I never called anyone 'whiners' for not understanding the concepts or rules...they were very new at the time.


They are still different. And poorly presented. This is supported by the evidence that people are still having a difficult time understanding them. Even with help.

radsailor wrote:
The rules are not going to be easy to learn because they model a very complex process. That does not make them bad, just difficult.


What people are asking for is a rule book that is easier to learn from. Difficult concepts can be explained in such a way as to render them comprehensible. What is wrong with that? Rules that teach the game are a positive thing. We all learn differently. What sets FoF out is the percentage of people that have/had difficulty. At some point, it is not the 'whiners' but the rules, or their presentation.

I am sure their is a good game in there. I could not find it, despite looking.
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Phil McDonald
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Frankly sunshine, I don't give a tinkers cuss what your opinion is on 'whining'

I give full praise when game designers do their job well, and I will complain when they don't. You get the right to that when you buy their games. If you don't like it, why bother to read the thread?

This is a game where the designer didn't see the necessity to include an index.

Get off your high horse and realise that BGG isn't here just for your PERSONAL perusal !
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Kenneth Lury
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philmcd wrote:
Frankly sunshine, I don't give a tinkers cuss what your opinion is on 'whining'

Get off your high horse and realise that BGG isn't here for your PERSONAL perusal !


Actually, it is ! BGG is here for everyone's personal perusal, and you might want to look up the definition of perusal just so you don't get it wrong

 
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Phil McDonald
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Peruse away Mr pedant, but BGG is not here SOLELY for you.
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David Hughes
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radsailor wrote:
To all of you whiners out there, What is the big problem ? If you want to learn and play the game, do so. If not, don't.

In my opinion, discussions about tactics, strategy and historicity would be far more interesting and beneficial.

That is my 4 cents.

Addendum: Need to mention the fact that the designer just returned from overseas military duty (reservist) after being yanked away from his life and while he was there he still took time to answer our questions.


Where to begin? Well, it is indeed just your 4 cents. My 8 cents are that the rules are a mess. They have certainly stopped me playing. Now, that might be me. On the other hand, the rules did not stop me playing at least 350 other games, many with rules which are hobby watchwords for disaster.

Discussion of strategy etc would indeed be more interesting, but strategy is pretty redundant if players can't actually play the game.

As for your addendum, it's irrelevant.

Bottomline? Sounds to me like you need external validation of your choices, so you attack those who don't share them.
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Gene Baker
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Games with dragons, spaceships, and bears aren’t wargames. Call them conquest games or strategy games or crap but they aren’t wargames.
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radsailor wrote:

Obviously your choice. You are missing out on a great gaming experience. I guess there are a few other games out there that will keep you busy until then. Seems like more and more solitaire games are coming out which is great for a solo player like me.


That is the important point for me. There are a lot of games out there and my time is important to me. I still follow FoF here and on Consim because I suspect it may be the best solo game for the buck. Its still available at several sites so I'm not worried about it going OOP yet.

The next rules rewrite will decide for me whether its permanently off my wishlist or a purchase. I hope its a future purchase. Meanwhile I'm enjoying the solo D Day at Omaha Beach.
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Andrew Wright
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gbaker59 wrote:
radsailor wrote:

Obviously your choice. You are missing out on a great gaming experience. I guess there are a few other games out there that will keep you busy until then. Seems like more and more solitaire games are coming out which is great for a solo player like me.


That is the important point for me. There are a lot of games out there and my time is important to me. I still follow FoF here and on Consim because I suspect it may be the best solo game for the buck. Its still available at several sites so I'm not worried about it going OOP yet.

The next rules rewrite will decide for me whether its permanently off my wishlist or a purchase. I hope its a future purchase. Meanwhile I'm enjoying the solo D Day at Omaha Beach.

To me, this is the crux of it, and well stated. FoF is one of the truly intriguing games that have ever come out. I own it, have 'played' it, and intend to keep it.

However, my style tends to be very exacting to 'get it right,' which makes FoF very difficult. There are two gateways to my giving it another go, which I fully expect to do: 1) Drop some rules, and/or 2) Hold out for a rules edit, or another compelling summary of understanding of the game.

In the meantime, this thing is like James Joyce. The limit to appreciating it is in me, and I am just waiting around for a little help.
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John Brady
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There was another Ventrilo Fields of Fire event last night, starting at 8:30pm EST. There were about 15 of us that participated. I'll be the first to admit that the rules leave a lot to be desired in Fields of Fire...but the publisher has gone to *great* lengths to try and help those interested learn how to play the game, and anyone with an internet connection can participate in these ventrilo events with a minimum of effort. It takes about 3 mins to d/l and install the ventrilo client, and another couple of mins to configure it...and you need to ge the vassal mod as well...another very short d/l.

The fact remains that this game does require a little more effort to learn than some, but the publisher is bending over backwards to help folks do just that. For anyone who's interested, we're picking up where we left off this Wednesday evening at 10:00pm EST (check with the GMT website to confirm that). I believe that last night's session was recorded for posterity, but once again check with GMT to see how that's being distributed.
 
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Phil McDonald
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I stayed up to participate, (8:30 EST is 1:30am here), but fell asleep on the sofa (couch). Shan't make it on Wed cos it's 3am for that one.

Hope the recordings are made available.

BTW GMT is my favourite game company, and any problems I have are with this particular game, not GMT in general.
 
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Kenneth Lury
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philmcd wrote:
Peruse away Mr pedant, but BGG is not here SOLELY for you.


No, that would be very lonely
 
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Kenneth Lury
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gbaker59 wrote:
radsailor wrote:

Obviously your choice. You are missing out on a great gaming experience. I guess there are a few other games out there that will keep you busy until then. Seems like more and more solitaire games are coming out which is great for a solo player like me.


That is the important point for me. There are a lot of games out there and my time is important to me. I still follow FoF here and on Consim because I suspect it may be the best solo game for the buck. Its still available at several sites so I'm not worried about it going OOP yet.

The next rules rewrite will decide for me whether its permanently off my wishlist or a purchase. I hope its a future purchase. Meanwhile I'm enjoying the solo D Day at Omaha Beach.


I am thinking of getting D Day Omaha Beach. Is it really good ? Lots of decisions or more of an "along for the ride" ?
 
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