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Cosmic Encounter» Forums » Rules

Subject: Vulch Super and wording rss

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Chris Withem

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Vulch Power lets them take any artifact card after it's played and add it to his hand. It also allows him to keep artifact cards when drawing a new hand.

Vulch Super says...
Quote:
You may use your power to collect any discarded flares as well as artifacts


My question is basically - when and what can the vulch take upon revealing their super flare? It came up as a bit of a debate in that i could NOT take my own artifacts played. Furthermore on the second attempt I tried after house ruling i couldn't use it on my own artifacts, am i then allowed to search the discard pile and take any number of flares and/or artifacts and add them to my hand?
 
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Barney Bustoffson
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It is my understanding that you can only take flares AS they are discarded with the Super. You can't just sift through the discard pile well after those cards were put there.
 
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Garrett Baca
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Alright Chris, I've mulled it over for an hour, so here goes...

OWNERSHIP OF CARDS:
My interpretation is that the word "any" being used in the Super text is not redundant, and this DOES imply that Vulch may recycle his own cards.

TIMING OF CARDS:
Since the word "collect" is undefined in this context, I assume Vulch's Super would just work the way his standard power already works, namely, exactly when a card is discarded, Vulch takes it into his hand. With standard rules, every flare is still limited to one use per turn, meaning that all the cards Vulch salvages in an encounter must come from the SAME discarding event. Whether it was an ability, a hand reset, or a completed battle which caused the cards to be discarded, the Vulch can only take whatever was lost in that event.
Basically, Vulch can't activate his Super ability to last a whole turn, so there's a definite limit to how many cards he will snatch.



Anyway Chris, I'm heading back over to finish our game now. Seeya soon.

-------------------------------------

-LinkDude will come up with a signature text soon.
 
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Calavera Despierta
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Is there a reason why this thread was started by, and then commented on separately by two users who only registered today? Is it a coincidence that they are both in Texas? Are they the same user?
 
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Daniel Corban
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They are likely real-life friends who just started playing this game recently, which probably led them to discover this site or finally have an incentive to register.
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Chris Withem

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Garrett can be like that -_-'

I just wanted an actual opinion/official ruling on somebody that wasn't in the game.
 
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Lyn Fox
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Vulch's power reads:
Quote:
You have the power to Salvage. Whenever any other player discards an artifact card (whether after playing it or not), use this power to add the artifact to your hand. Any artifact cards you play are discarded as normal and cannot be salvaged.

If you draw a new hand, you keep your old artifacts after revealing them, then draw eight new cards in addition to the artifacts.

Vulch's power has two parts. The first part let's him snatch artifacts as they are discarded by other players, and the second lets him keep the artifacts when he has to get a new hand.

Most Super Flares, the Vulch one included, improve upon the normal alien power. In this case, it allows you to Salvage flares the same way the power normally works with artifacts. The reference to "as well as artifacts" is meant only to indicate this. It is does NOT allow you to use your power on your own stuff.

To clarify, when using the Vulch Super, treat Vulch's power as though it says:
Quote:
You have the power to Salvage. Whenever any other player discards an artifact or flare card (whether after playing it or not), use this power to add the artifact or flare to your hand. Any artifact or flare cards you play are treated as normal and cannot be salvaged.

Note that the second paragraph is missing here. That's because that part of the ability isn't "used" and so cannot be affected by the super.
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Ken Newell
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Looking at the way it is actually worded we agreed here that NO you cannot take your own artifacts played. This is because of the wording "any OTHER player" (emphasis mine) in the rule.

As for going through the discard pile to find and add to your hand, that was also agreed that you could NOT do that either. Here the key phrase was "WHENever any other player discards...". If you didn't grab it or use your power when the discard originally happened, you are now out of luck. Add to that the fact you can't grab your own artifacts, it would be hard to look at the discard pile and remember which ones you had used and which ones others had used. So no dice here either.
 
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Garrett Baca
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Alright, last question. Can the super flare be activated at the start of a turn and then last for the whole encounter? Vulch's normal ability works in every phase, but since we don't play with freewheeling, we have to decide when it's possible to activate the flare and when it's possible to zap the flare.

--------------------------------
-LinkDude still has no signature text.
 
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Big Head Zach
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LinkDude wrote:
Alright, last question. Can the super flare be activated at the start of a turn and then last for the whole encounter? Vulch's normal ability works in every phase, but since we don't play with freewheeling, we have to decide when it's possible to activate the flare and when it's possible to zap the flare.

--------------------------------
-LinkDude still has no signature text.


This is something that FFG has partially answered with its FAQ notes about the Wild Mind Flare...
Quote:
Mind's Wild Flare allows its player to look at all cards drawn by a single player for the duration of the encounter.


...and something in particular about the wording of the Wild Anti-Matter Flare...
Quote:
As a main player or an ally, when another player plays a Wild Flare, you may prevent him or her from doing so (the card returns to the player's hand). Use only once per encounter.


...as well as Wild Void:
Quote:
Once per encounter, you may send one of your ships not in the encounter to the warp to cancel the effect of any one Artifact card, which is discarded normally.


This is one of the few examples where a Flare gets played and put back in hand, but its effect endures for the remainder of the encounter. Similar questions have been raised about Wild Remora, Wild Clone, Wild Filch, Wild Miser, Wild Reserve, Wild Zombie, and possibly others; these are all Flares whose trigger event could happen multiple times in the course of an encounter. Given that these Flares do not state "once per encounter" like the ones above do, until FFG rules otherwise, I feel that these Flares are "play once, effect endures" - but they can only be Card Zapped when they are played, not later on when you decide that they are too powerful to be allowed.

Regarding the original question, the first time you have an opportunity to steal a discarded Flare, play Super Vulch. If no one Card Zaps it, then you state "I am invoking Vulch's power, modified by this un-Zapped Flare, to take that Flare that was discarded". The caveat to this is that as written, Vulch's power could be Cosmic Zapped any time it is used - so later on in the encounter, if a particularly sweet Flare gets discarded, they can't Card Zap your Super Flare (it got played waaay earlier), but they can Cosmic Zap Vulch, as the original Super Flare extends your power; it doesn't have an effect of its own.

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Lyn Fox
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I couldn't find a rule that says so explicitly, but the following seems to be intended by many of the rules and FAQ.

The super would be played at the time the modified power would be used. In this case, at the time a flare is discarded. The "Any Phase" for it's timing is simply because it works whenever a flare could be discarded, which is not tied to a phase.

Also, its effect is tied to this one use of the power. Because of that, you could only Salvage one flare per encounter since you could't play the super again during the same encounter.
 
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Lyn Fox
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bhz1 wrote:
This is something that FFG has partially answered with its FAQ notes about the Wild Mind Flare...
Quote:
Mind's Wild Flare allows its player to look at all cards drawn by a single player for the duration of the encounter.

Wild Mind Flare was issued errata to give it the lasting effect. The card as originally written would not have it. Thus it's a counter example.

For supers that modify how or when a power is used, I believe the effect is tied to the one use only unless the card specifically specifies otherwise.
 
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Big Head Zach
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Then why do certain cards explicitly have to state "Use once per encounter"?
 
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Lyn Fox
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bhz1 wrote:
Then why do certain cards explicitly have to state "Use once per encounter"?

The Machine super says "During each of your regroup phases..." Therefore one could assume the effects of flares last for the rest of the game or at least the rest of your turn (not just a single encounter). You only get one regroup phase per encounter after all, so the card's effect must last beyond a single encounter right? Right???

No. Like with a lot of other flares, it's just poor wording. (for example, Tick-Tock super refer to a "challenge" instead of an "encounter", and Loser super specifies that you don't have to play attack cards even though the flare is played too late for such a restriction to be possible anyway.)


I will say though, that after looking at all the flares closer, I'm forced to revise my position. Thought it amounts to almost the same thing.

The way most of the flares are worded it seems that they are meant to do their thing once and then be done. Thus after the power is used in it's modified form, the effect does no more. Not because it's tied to the power use, but because it's did it's thing. It said you may use the power such and such a way and you did.

Judging from the timing strip on the various flares, it would seem that the super flares should be used in the phase where power it modifies occurs. In every case where the phase in which the power will occur is known, that's the timing restriction listed on the card. Only ones that happen in various phases are listed as "any phase".


One more thing, I wanted to retract what I said about the Mind flare errata. I think the "rest of this encounter" line was most likely added for clarity, but the main purpose of the errata was to change it to only work against one other player. I suspect that they expect the "When", "Whenever" or "Each time" wording to indicate an effect that can happen multiple times. As I said, it's poor wording as they really should specify these things explicitly.
 
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