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Subject: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread - Results posted! rss

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This is the discussion thread for the math trade.

Once upon a time, a Geek had an interesting idea:

Games Rule!

OK - so the idea was really that trading games in a math trade is much more desirable than trading other items. Sadly, the idea was lost in the mists of time until one day...

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- local wizard and the father of the Online Want-List Generator - waved his magic wand and made it possible!

This math trade will put this new metric to the test. Boiled down to the simplest level, the TradeMaximizer will (as ever) calculate the most trades that can be made using all available items, and the result will come from that set based upon a new system of weight where games are given more weight than non-game items (see the discussion here for more details).

There is nothing to be "afraid" of here. You will not need to do anything differently than you would in any other math trade. The OLWLG will automatically handle weighting of game and non-game items for you. We will still be able to use the USER-TRADING metric with this.

Request GeekList: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/48121
Trade GeekList: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/48181

Use of the On-Line Want List Generator (OLWLG) is required for this event (please remember to tip JeffyJeff some GG for his support).

Please do not delete items or sweeteners once you have listed them. You can always submit a blank want list for an entry if you've traded it away before the deadline.

OK - some simple rules - please take a few minutes to read them:


d10-1 Gift certificates, Geekgold, DVDs etc are all permitted.

d10-2 Gift certificate and GG arbitrage are NOT allowed. Neither are cash offerings.

d10-3 Non-game entries must be added as "Outside the Scope of BGG" (game id 23953) or "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" (game id 5985) and must include the +altname+ brief description -altname- format in the description of your item.

If your entry is Geekgold, please use the work "Geekgold" or "gold" somewhere in the altname tag. Similarly if your offering is a gift certificate, please use the word "gift" in the tag. This will help with the weighting of the non-game items and allow us to better judge the success (or failure) of this new idea.

d10-4 You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. This includes sweeteners if they are physical items (i.e. not GG).

For games not brand new (in shrink) you must inventory the game's components and list anything missing. Do not assume it's complete. Also, remember that just because something is "new in shrink" that doesn't mean that you shouldn't disclose any dings. It might not matter to you, but it matters to some people.

If the game and/or expansion you are listing is a "Print & Play" make that clear in the description (and I recommend you give specifics what it was printed on, mounted on, etc).

If you are listing an expansion if you reference the base game in the description be clear one way or the other if you are including the base game or not. Do not include a link to the base game unless you are including it as this looks, in the OLWLG, as if you are.

d10-5 To keep things simple (in light of past issues with recent math trades), you must be willing to cover FULL shipping within your own country. For most people that won't be an issue, as most uf us do that anyway but for everyone else, please take this into account when making your want lists. You are not required to ship outside of your own country but your shipping restrictions outside of your own country must be clearly stated and if you are not covering full shipping elsewhere, then you must state precisely how much of the shipping you will cover.

Minor change: U.S. participants must pay full shipping to the "lower 48", although I would encourage you to offer to pay at least partial shipping to HI and AK.

Overseas shipping note: You are not permitted to require a specific amount for shipping from the recipient and must cover at least the first $5 of shipping costs for items you send out. "Mirror shipping" is not allowed. Any ambiguity will be interpreted as generosity on your part. This means that if you don't include a shipping policy, then it is assumed that you will ship anywhere in the world for free!

d10-6 Sweeteners are to be listed using either the GAMEID formatting (prefered, example Hansa) or a link to the game's page (this will look like http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/8989). If you don't use this format your sweeteners won't show up in the OLWLG properly.

d10-7 If you've been reported to me as a bad trader, you cannot participate. If you try to, I will remove your entries.

d10-8 Please do NOT include links to other games in your entry unless you are actually including them as a sweetener, as this is displayed in a misleading manner by the OLWLG.

d10-9 If you feel the need to use them, please keep disclaimers short and to the point so they don't make things hard to read. If you need to use a longer disclaimer, please include a link to it in each of your entries instead of copying the whole thing into each entry - thanks.

d10-1d10-0 Finally - you are expected to periodically check during the item submission period, and preferably during the want list submission period, to see if anyone has commented on your entries. People often ask questions of items - most commonly because you have forgotten to state a version, language or shipping policy - and you should check in to address such questions in a timely manner should they arise, so that everyone then has the correct information available.

This is a very easy thing to do. Step 3 in the OLWLG will tell you at the top when you have items that people have commented on, and give a link to that comment. You will only need to go back to the trade GeekList to make adjustments or answer questions if there were any.


Other useful information


OLWLG Help: http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/OLWLG

Software Used: TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection. SEED=1234567, ITERATIONS=100, METRIC=USERS-TRADING (with weighted entries)

List Cap: None

Maximum Submissions Per User: Unlimited

Geekgold restrictions:

Users may not post more geekgold than they currently have. Geekgold arbitrage is not allowed.


Key dates (all times are CENTRAL TIME)

Open for posting games: Friday, November 6th (10am) until Thursday, November 12th (10am)

Want list submission period: Thursday, November 12th (10am) until Saturday, November 14th (10pm) - no extensions!

Results posted about an hour thereafter.

Please note that it's best to work on your want list and submit them early - you can always make changes and resubmit later. This will prevent you from being left out if you forget the deadline.

Also: Creating want lists is not the same as submitting them. To submit them you will need to click on the "Submit My Wants" button. If you're not sure how to find this, consult the documentation referenced above or ask in the discussion thread.


When you submit your want lists, you will receive a confirming GeekMail. If you don't get one, your want lists haven't been submitted. Your want lists in the GeekMail may be truncated - this is fine.

Want list submission

Submissions may be made at any time after the 12th at 10am, but only by the OLWLG. If you will be unavailable during the want list submission period but still wish to participate, contact me directly and we can discuss alternatives.

Note: only errors by the moderator will invalidate the results.

Also in the case that there is a problem after the results are posted, at most it will only invalidate the affected trade chain(s) and not the entire results set. In addition if the problem can be resolved by the most directly affected party or parties, then that is perfectly acceptable.
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion threadhttp://boardgamegeek.com/article/edit/4164499
Sadly we have several missing want lists this time around:

# MISSING 56 WANTS (3.2%) FROM 7 USER(s) (3.1%):
# casterman (4)
# jaysachs (4)
# jmellby (8)
# kneumann (22)
# LordJesse (12)
# niftykracker (5)
# scottsnew1 (1)

And worse still, 8 of those items were on my want lists! What were they thinking!
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
Results are in!

http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/trades-summary.cgi?listid=...

Not as great a trade percentage as I had hoped:

Num trades = 332 of 1725 items (19.2%)

156 users traded at least one item.
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
Awesome. Thanks, Jack!

And an all around thanks to Math Trade organizers everywhere, you all rock.
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
Thanks for doing another math trade! I'm not looking for much, but they are always fun.
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
anglotiger wrote:
d10-5 To keep things simple (in light of past issues with recent math trades), you must be willing to cover FULL shipping within your own country.
Note for those who are fond of providing free shipping to the 48 continental US states - you can't in this trade. Gotta be free to all 50. Alaskans and Hawaiians rejoice!

anglotiger wrote:
Software Used: TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection. SEED=1234567, ITERATIONS=100, METRIC=USERS-TRADING (with weighted entries)
With the weights provided to exclude GG and GC entries preferentially, it's less likely that there will be multiple entries with the same overall cost. It'd be interesting to see whether the total users trading changes if the weights are dropped. That's a test I'd like to see in evaluating this new low-priority GG/GC idea.
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
thumbsup for Rule d10-5
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
dyfrgi wrote:
anglotiger wrote:
d10-5 To keep things simple (in light of past issues with recent math trades), you must be willing to cover FULL shipping within your own country.
Note for those who are fond of providing free shipping to the 48 continental US states - you can't in this trade. Gotta be free to all 50. Alaskans and Hawaiians rejoice!
Yes, but do the Chinese have to ship to Tibet?
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
anglotiger wrote:
OK - so the idea was really that trading games in a math trade is much more desirable than trading other items. Sadly, the idea was lost in the mists of time until one day...
Yes lost in time and buried under page 5 of a semi-related subject/thread (arbitrage of geek gold) that I never followed, at least not to page 5... roughly 2 years ago...

Re: Math Trade GG Arbitrage should be Banned

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edit: ... and Joe just found another old thread the idea was at least a month older than FlyingArrow's above post....
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Math Trade Feature: Not All Trades Are Created Equal
I must have missed that discussion as well (even though it wasn't burried in another thread) as I don't appear to have been subscribe to it not contributed to the discussion.

Also want to remind folks that the World Series isn't over yet (though it's close with yankees up 6 runs) to vote:
Poll
Who are you cheering for in the 2009 World Series?
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
Phillies
82.2% 37
Yankees
17.8% 8
Voters 45
This poll is now closed.   45 answers
Poll created by JeffyJeff
Closes: Thu Nov 5, 2009 6:00 am


edit: make that a only 4 run lead after philies got a 2-run homer

edit: yankees win game 6 and the series... boy looks like an overwhelming number of folks were cheering for the phillies to win 2 years in a row instead
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
dyfrgi wrote:
anglotiger wrote:
d10-5 To keep things simple (in light of past issues with recent math trades), you must be willing to cover FULL shipping within your own country.
Note for those who are fond of providing free shipping to the 48 continental US states - you can't in this trade. Gotta be free to all 50. Alaskans and Hawaiians rejoice!
this does suck... the price of shipping, unless it fits in a flat rate usps box, is from my understanding significantly more expensive (especially to HI). If I have to factor that in my wants will be even shorter unless I'm willing to take the risk...

... I've asked before and still haven't heard any from Hawaii and Alaska speak up... are there ever any math traders from those 2 States? I'm not a big gambler and with my luck if I didn't factor shipping to those 2 States some new MT'ers from those States will join in and I'd be ...

dyfrgi wrote:
anglotiger wrote:
Software Used: TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection. SEED=1234567, ITERATIONS=100, METRIC=USERS-TRADING (with weighted entries)
With the weights provided to exclude GG and GC entries preferentially, it's less likely that there will be multiple entries with the same overall cost. It'd be interesting to see whether the total users trading changes if the weights are dropped. That's a test I'd like to see in evaluating this new low-priority GG/GC idea.
Already discussed in

Math Trade Idea -- Priority Real Games

Users-Trading and normal priorities are definitely incompatible with at most I've ever seen a one more user trading variation. In those MT's however there is a lot more range of edge costs and for each and every item (as it depends on where on each want list it's on that wants it). However with this MT first the edge cost is fixed for each item no matter what... and second a large percentage of the items are going to have exactly the same costs (priorities) as most as usual will be real games... and even for the non-game items same things apply. As I guessed in the other thread, I do expect some narrowing of Users-Trading, however I guessing it will be closer to running Users-Trading w/no priorites than it would be to regular priorities. Will be easy enough to see after it's over as it will be very easy to make a test run of TradeMax with the same input and one command line option (I think, I may not have --priorities=none as an CL option, may have to make edit to options in input file).
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
JeffyJeff wrote:
dyfrgi wrote:
anglotiger wrote:
d10-5 To keep things simple (in light of past issues with recent math trades), you must be willing to cover FULL shipping within your own country.
Note for those who are fond of providing free shipping to the 48 continental US states - you can't in this trade. Gotta be free to all 50. Alaskans and Hawaiians rejoice!
this does suck... the price of shipping, unless it fits in a flat rate usps box, is from my understanding significantly more expensive (especially to HI). If I have to factor that in my wants will be even shorter unless I'm willing to take the risk...
Fortunately for your want lists, you're wrong. The price to ship a 4lb box via priority mail from 01375 (Sunderland, MA) to 96740 (Kailua-Kona, HI) is $14.70, same as to ship to San Francisco. Parcel post is similar. I didn't check Alaska, but I'd be surprised if it was more.
 
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
dyfrgi wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
dyfrgi wrote:
anglotiger wrote:
d10-5 To keep things simple (in light of past issues with recent math trades), you must be willing to cover FULL shipping within your own country.
Note for those who are fond of providing free shipping to the 48 continental US states - you can't in this trade. Gotta be free to all 50. Alaskans and Hawaiians rejoice!
this does suck... the price of shipping, unless it fits in a flat rate usps box, is from my understanding significantly more expensive (especially to HI). If I have to factor that in my wants will be even shorter unless I'm willing to take the risk...
Fortunately for your want lists, you're wrong. The price to ship a 4lb box via priority mail from 01375 (Sunderland, MA) to 96740 (Kailua-Kona, HI) is $14.70, same as to ship to San Francisco. Parcel post is similar. I didn't check Alaska, but I'd be surprised if it was more.
nope, I'm not wrong... you just confirmed I'm right... I don't ship expensive usps... I ship 6 pound boxes cross country w/fedex ground for $10 or less... unless you can tell me fedex "ground" doesn't charge more to an island chain in the south pacific? Ie. I'd have to factor in $15 shipping vs. the $10 I do now for games that don't fit in a flat rate usps box (which costs $10 and I think is 50 USA... which is why on some items I do say withn USA vs just lower 48 USA).

by the way why you so excited that folks are forced to ship to the 2 non-lower 48, assuming any math traders there even exist?
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
dyfrgi wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
dyfrgi wrote:
anglotiger wrote:
d10-5 To keep things simple (in light of past issues with recent math trades), you must be willing to cover FULL shipping within your own country.
Note for those who are fond of providing free shipping to the 48 continental US states - you can't in this trade. Gotta be free to all 50. Alaskans and Hawaiians rejoice!
this does suck... the price of shipping, unless it fits in a flat rate usps box, is from my understanding significantly more expensive (especially to HI). If I have to factor that in my wants will be even shorter unless I'm willing to take the risk...
Fortunately for your want lists, you're wrong. The price to ship a 4lb box via priority mail from 01375 (Sunderland, MA) to 96740 (Kailua-Kona, HI) is $14.70, same as to ship to San Francisco. Parcel post is similar. I didn't check Alaska, but I'd be surprised if it was more.
It's not. Both Alaska and Hawaii are in Zone 8 from the East Coast, as is all of the West Coast. If you're on the West Coast, shipping to Alaska and Hawaii costs the same as shipping to the East Coast. If you're in the middle of the country, shipping to those states will be somewhat more expensive than shipping to either coast, but not excessively so.
 
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
Always trying to ring that last penny out of the math trades. I'm starting to think that this in an industry for JJ and were just here to line his pockets.

Insert what Emoticon you would like here.

No seriously, do you really calculate that one out of a thousand chance that some islander of our great country will actually be the recipient of one of your games? If you do, I'm going to take that wasted energy and time to help conquer the world.

Insert another Emoticon here... once again, your choice.
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
JeffyJeff wrote:
dyfrgi wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
dyfrgi wrote:
anglotiger wrote:
d10-5 To keep things simple (in light of past issues with recent math trades), you must be willing to cover FULL shipping within your own country.
Note for those who are fond of providing free shipping to the 48 continental US states - you can't in this trade. Gotta be free to all 50. Alaskans and Hawaiians rejoice!
this does suck... the price of shipping, unless it fits in a flat rate usps box, is from my understanding significantly more expensive (especially to HI). If I have to factor that in my wants will be even shorter unless I'm willing to take the risk...
Fortunately for your want lists, you're wrong. The price to ship a 4lb box via priority mail from 01375 (Sunderland, MA) to 96740 (Kailua-Kona, HI) is $14.70, same as to ship to San Francisco. Parcel post is similar. I didn't check Alaska, but I'd be surprised if it was more.
nope, I'm not wrong... you just confirmed I'm right... I don't ship expensive usps... I ship 6 pound boxes cross country w/fedex ground for $10 or less... unless you can tell me fedex "ground" doesn't charge more to an island chain in the south pacific? Ie. I'd have to factor in $15 shipping vs. the $10 I do now for games that don't fit in a flat rate usps box (which costs $10 and I think is 50 USA... which is why on some items I do say withn USA vs just lower 48 USA).

by the way why you so excited that folks are forced to ship to the 2 non-lower 48, assuming any math traders there even exist?
Fedex's rates to HI are indeed prohibitive. However, the cost to ship a 6lb package to CA from here is $11 via Fedex, and to HI it's $13 via USPS parcel post. $2 is well into game valuation noise.

I'm not excited about people having to provide free shipping to HI and AK, but I don't really care either. If I lived there, you can be sure I'd rejoice, thus my suggestion that they should do so. I do very much prefer not to have to think about how much shipping I might be on the hook for on the receiving end for people in the US, so this policy is much better for me than "whatever you want, so long as you declare it". Those "$10 of the cost to anywhere entries" take longer to think about since I have to check how much it'd cost to ship that game from wherever the trader is.
 
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
darthhugo wrote:
Always trying to ring that last penny out of the math trades. I'm starting to think that this in an industry for JJ and were just there to line his pockets.
What side of the bed did you wake up? Seriously, why such negativity. Yea, I'm running a real racket, laughing all the way to the bank... putting hundreds of hours into the OLWLG and getting paid nothing, not sure that's a great industry/business model.

You feel free to ignore shipping costs in composing your want lists, but some of us trade enough that $2 here, $5 there adds up to quite a lot over a year. And some of us are also between jobs, lucky you to be one of the 90% still employed.

Quote:
No seriously, do you really calculate that one out of thousand chance that some islander our great country will actually be the recipient of one of your games? If you do, I'm going to take that wasted energy and time to help conquer the world.
Ah, pulling out the patriotism card (someone listens to rush?)... if I don't want to ship to every state in this great country I must be a commie huh?

What is it these days with so many cranky folks?
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
OK - OK - I was trying to keep this simple, not complicate it. I have never seen a MT participant from HI or AK but I will amend the rule to be that shippers in the U.S. only have to pay full to the lower 48 (but I will encourage you to at least offer to ship to HI or AK).
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
Bwaaaaahahahaha. You really need to find a job to keep your mind from drawing all the wrong conclusions.

Nobody is denying your great contribution to this math trade thingy. And my comments were meant in jest.

Geez, if I thought you were gaming the system, I would suggest that you have gamed the OLWLG code to favor your trades. A $1 trade differential in your favor here, a $1 there. These $s add up over time.

Well, do you?

Your lack of denial makes you seem suspicious.

Insert whatever Emoticon here.
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
darthhugo wrote:
Bwaaaaahahahaha. You really need to find a job to keep your mind from drawing all the wrong conclusions.
Sorry if I infered incorrectly but coming off a day where someone who hasn't even tipped a single whines that I'm not addressing their issues w/the OLWLG and instead doing what I want to do instead (how selfish of me ).

darthhugo wrote:
Geez, if I thought you were gaming the system, I would suggest that you have gamed the OLWLG code to favor your trades. A $1 trade differential in your favor here, a $1 there. These $s add up over time.
If someone could let me know how to game it let me know (offline of course )... I used to be concerned about transparency as folks have questioned it in the past (as well as the MT organizer)... however it's really difficult to game it (not counting geek gold or gift cert arbitrage when allowed) and I've challenged folks to try... since all the WANTS are public after the submission period is closed, anyone can see if I or the MT organizer hacks other folks want lists, and they can also verify we didn't hack the results (TradeMax output) as that's also public after and anyone can then run TradeMax themselves to see those WANTS indeed give those results.

In the "old days" the system had been gamed... since large (499 items!) math trades really required -R option of TradeGenie it was essentially impossible to reproduce results... that's why kayvon added a verification code in V1.2 (see TradeGenie 1.2 Released) and since his sources were proprietary it would be hard for the casual person trying to game it to get verification to pass (you'd have to decompile TradeGenie and look hard, I think someone said they did try reverse engineering it, don't remember how far they got).
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
JeffyJeff wrote:
by the way why you so excited that folks are forced to ship to the 2 non-lower 48, assuming any math traders there even exist?
It is no fun if you can't exclude someone. For this Math Trade only, I refuse to ship to South Dakota (North Dakota is OK), Kalamazoo, MI and Ft. Lauderdale, FL. arrrh

I can't live by your rules, MAN! devil
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Rich Keiser
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
In step, I will refuse to trade with BGGers who have family members with the letter Q in their middle names.

Cate108 wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
by the way why you so excited that folks are forced to ship to the 2 non-lower 48, assuming any math traders there even exist?
It is no fun if you can't exclude someone. For this Math Trade only, I refuse to ship to South Dakota (North Dakota is OK), Kalamazoo, MI and Ft. Lauderdale, FL. arrrh

I can't live by your rules, MAN! devil
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
Cate108 wrote:
It is no fun if you can't exclude someone.
remember what Groucho said about any club who would have him as a member...
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Cate
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Ring the bells that still can ring, Forget your perfect offering, There's a crack in everything, That's how the light gets in. - Leonard Cohen
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
JeffyJeff wrote:
Cate108 wrote:
It is no fun if you can't exclude someone.
remember what Groucho said about any club who would have him as a member...
Good point. I REFUSE TO SHIP ANYTHING TO MYSELF.
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Chris Geggus
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
Speaking as the first overseas representative on this thread I wish to confirm that in line with all my previous and recent Math Trades I will offer free shipping to anywhere in the world. They may be lighter weight offerings, but that's my choice. Yes I am also in employment, so I guess I am not watching the costings quite so much.

I will also continue to moan about traders not offering overseas shipping, but that is an argument that will run for years I am sure. I just feel that it's a shame that what should be fun (a Math Trade) is becoming so commercialised and regimented. So what if postage costs a few bucks more, so what if the game you receive is valued a few bucks less? At the end of the day we are having fun trading, dumping games we don't want and gaining games that we fancy and will play. All hobbies cost money somewhere in the equation. Seems simple to me.

And thanks yet again to Anglotiger.

Oh and just in case anyone is wondering if I am actually going to put my money where my mouth is, I must advise that a European Trade is still running, so I am waiting on outcome before seeing what I can offer here.
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Ken Dean
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Re: Games Rule! Math Trade - discussion thread
JeffyJeff wrote:

Ah, pulling out the patriotism card (someone listens to rush?)...
Speaking of Rush - I don't know who the chick is who sings for Rush, but she's got a great set of pipes!
 
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