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Combat Commander: Pacific» Forums » General

Subject: which one, europe or pacific? rss

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Cristian Mihaescu
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Hello,

after I read most of the reviews (including the comparison review), I'm still undecided which one to buy, CC:E or CC:P. Please, don't tell me both, I have enough money only for one game.

I would prefer the CC:E war-theater but I would prefer CC:P because it has fewer amount of luck in the games (I don't like too much luck in the games).

I wondering which one has better maps (in functionality and variety, not quality of paper) for better tactical/strategical games and which game has a better balance?

Any other information to help me to decide is welcomed!

Thank you,
cristian
 
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Malte Menger
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if you prefer lower luck, just go with pacific, no question about that. this is the major difference between those two games. maps are good and there is a lot aof variety in all of them.
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Fritz Mulnar
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as of now there are only expansions for cc:e around and some rule variants which even the rules of cc:e and cc a little. cc:e counters are a little worse cut han any others in the series, making them very hard to clip (if you want to do that).
cards in the mediterranean exp for cc:e are as of now of lesser quality than the others.
 
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Malte Menger
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i did not have any problems clipping the cc:e counters and my cc:e and cc:m cards are of the same (low) quality. i can back up that card quality in cc is a little bit better (not great though...).
 
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Mark Buetow
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But you really SHOULD get both! Can't you sell some furniture or skip some meals? laugh

OK, seriously...

The difference in "randomness" is not as pronounced as I think some make it out to be. I've had plenty of crazy and unexpected things happen in either game.

Since there are more expansions for Europe at the moment, there is a larger variety of maps. I would say, however, that the Pacific maps are a bit more challenging in this respect: In Europe, you can (usually) exit units anywhere off your opponent's map edge for victory points. In Pacific, you can do the same, however, the points vary by exactly where you exit them. (For example, via a trail might be 3 points per unit versus 0 points somewhere else).

Overall, I think the maps included with each base game are pretty comparable in their challenges. Objective hexes interestingly placed (and objective 5 is usually the most important).

Because the games are so very similar, and the components all good (I have no idea about badly cut counters...) I would suggest going with your theater preference and probably get Europe. Just realize that without Mediterranean, you don't have the entire theater and nationalities.
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Freddy Dekker
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Well Mark knowing you, I'd reckon you wouldn't find anything wrong with the game components.

So I MUST buy mediteranean aswell if I go for Europe?
What exactly would make me regret it if I didn't?

Does it come with an extra map, so you can have a really big map of Europe or is it just extra units (I know you'll have brits).
And as we're talking about expansions, what do these other expansion add to the game? more units?

From what I've read here I almost get the impression Pacific might be better than Europe, allthough I must say I'm very tempted to buy Europe as it's closer to home.

 
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Mark Buetow
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sagitar wrote:
Well Mark knowing you, I'd reckon you wouldn't find anything wrong with the game components.


Quote:

So I MUST buy mediteranean aswell if I go for Europe?
What exactly would make me regret it if I didn't?


An annoying Yank telling you that you should regret it if you don't own both! laugh

Quote:

Does it come with an extra map, so you can have a really big map of Europe or is it just extra units (I know you'll have brits).
And as we're talking about expansions, what do these other expansion add to the game? more units?


It has 12 new maps but you misunderstand: the maps don't fit together to make a realistic map of any country or part of a country. Each map is self-contained and shows common terrain that would be found all around Europe. Don't get the impression there are necessarily "real" places, though some of the expansions (like Stalingrad and Normandy) have maps based on real locations.

Quote:

From what I've read here I almost get the impression Pacific might be better than Europe, allthough I must say I'm very tempted to buy Europe as it's closer to home.



When Pacific came out, I initially thought I liked it a little better. Now I think I enjoy them pretty much the same. They are very different while being very similar, if that makes sense. The Pacific Theater is just such a different setting that it makes it its own challenge to play. Europe and Med have so many possibilities that you can play just about any battle. I really don't think you can go wrong with either one. And if you have one you'll want more. More! MORE! Muhahahaha!
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Nick Avtges
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I'd recommend Europe, mostly because you express a preference for that theater. Your reason for wanting Pacific is that it has less luck. I agree with Mark that this is probably overstated by most. While Pacific definitely is a notch or two lower on the randomness scale, I don't think it has any more or less luck. Core luck-based elements are basically the same (attack roll vs. defense roll, melee, card draws, etc).

Component quality is about the same for both. Cards are a little thicker in Pacific. I think the comments above regarding Europe's counters are referring to a problem with the second printing. A different jig was used to cut the counters which left the small bit attached to the sprue in the center of the counter, rather than the corner. I think this is not the case in the most recent printing, but I'm not completely sure about that.

As far as needing the expansions, I would say Europe is a great product all on its own. You'll have a great time with just the 12 scenarios in there and the random generator. If you really enjoy it and want more, you can either pick up the first battle pack, Paratroopers, which only requires the base set to play, for short money. If your really, REALLY, like it, than you know what to do...buy it all!

Either way you decide to go, you are getting a great game.
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John McLintock
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nix342 wrote:
I'd recommend Europe, mostly because you express a preference for that theater. Your reason for wanting Pacific is that it has less luck. I agree with Mark that this is probably overstated by most. While Pacific definitely is a notch or two lower on the randomness scale, I don't think it has any more or less luck. Core luck-based elements are basically the same (attack roll vs. defense roll, melee, card draws, etc).

I agree with this. I cannot see anything in CC that would make it a sensible one-and-only purchase from the series if you actually prefer the ETO.

Unless I am mistaken, the discussion of 'luck' in CC:E versus CC has mostly been about it being easier to build playable hands in CC than it is in CC:E. This might or might not be true (I have many, many fewer plays of CC than of CC:E, but I can see where this point is coming from); but this is as much about skill as it is about luck- hand management being a supremely important skill in the CC series. So in that respect, any talk of 'luck' is not of the 'sheer dumb' kind.

I guess there is also the issue of that extra degree of control over airstrikes, other assets, and weapon breakages in CC. There are significant rules variations here, but the core system remains the same. Either way, I would suggest that if you are interested enough in a card-driven WW2 tacsim to be considering CC, then you should stick to what you like best.
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Fritz Mulnar
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nix342 wrote:
I'd recommend Europe, mostly because you express a preference for that theater. Your reason for wanting Pacific is that it has less luck. I agree with Mark that this is probably overstated by most. While Pacific definitely is a notch or two lower on the randomness scale, I don't think it has any more or less luck. Core luck-based elements are basically the same (attack roll vs. defense roll, melee, card draws, etc).
Component quality is about the same for both. Cards are a little thicker in Pacific. I think the comments above regarding Europe's counters are referring to a problem with the second printing. A different jig was used to cut the counters which left the small bit attached to the sprue in the center of the counter, rather than the corner. I think this is not the case in the most recent printing, but I'm not completely sure about that.

i think i have the most recent printing (acquired about three months ago. and that is th "problem" with the counters. but is really only one if you want to clip the counters. the are cut out of the sprues as easily as the others.
the cards are laminated in cc:e and cc, at least in my copies. as cc:m is kind of an expansion, well, i accept the lesser (unlaminated and therefore thinner) quality of the cards. rest is the same as the other expansions, map and counterwise. and as i sleeve my cards with magicsize cardsleeves (perfect fit), cc:m's cards donot matter to me anyway.

Quote:
As far as needing the expansions, I would say Europe is a great product all on its own. You'll have a great time with just the 12 scenarios in there and the random generator. If you really enjoy it and want more, you can either pick up the first battle pack, Paratroopers, which only requires the base set to play, for short money. If your really, REALLY, like it, than you know what to do...buy it all!
have to second that. though i bought all in two sittings (summer sale blush ) cc:e and/or cc have countless hours of variable play in them.
Quote:

Either way you decide to go, you are getting a great game.


yep.
 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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criss_mcs3 wrote:
I would prefer CC because it has fewer amount of luck in the games (I don't like too much luck in the games).


It's not luck Christian, it's chaos.

The mechanics are the same, just the CC:E has chaotic events happening more frequently than in CC.
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Freddy Dekker
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Hmm wouldn't that be cool if CC had maps which were really authentic, I mean showed terrain of certain countries so we could actually reconise it.

Look, there's my house....!!shake

Oops, there was my house....

But maybe that's a thing for the future.
Yeah I know it is far more easie to have more general maps.
I wonder if I will aggree that you can play any battle in any country on the maps.

so...
what exactly is in mediteranian that makes it so special?
 
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sagitar wrote:
Hmm wouldn't that be cool if CC had maps which were really authentic, I mean showed terrain of certain countries so we could actually reconise it.


Many of the maps are just that. One in the Stalingrad pack goes so far as to name the streets. The Pacific Guadalcanal maps are rather good in this regard as well, IMHO.
 
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Mark Buetow
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sagitar wrote:


so...
what exactly is in mediteranian that makes it so special?


Europe and Mediterranean were originally one game. GMT broke it up to make it a bit less expensive. (Unless you're from Holland in which case it doesn't matter anyway... Hahaha).

Med contains the British, French and Italian Fate Decks which are also used for other Minor powers depending on the scenario. Of course there are 12 new maps and scenarios and the Random Scenario Generator is modified/updated to include all six powers in both games.

There is no game track though, so you need Europe to play with the components from Med.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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what's this random scenario thingie I keep hearing about.
how does that work.
 
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sagitar wrote:
what's this random scenario thingie I keep hearing about.
how does that work.

It's in the playbook of each game. Basically I've outlined a step-by-step procedure in which players choose and/or roll for things like map, nationalities, posture, forces, suppport weapons, etc.

The Random Scenario Generator thus creates an historically-viable scenario. Really the only thing lacking are the numerous special rules that often populate the ready-made scenarios. It's the way the game was played the first 250 times or so -- prior to GMT picking up the game for publication and the advent of preset situations.
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Mark Buetow
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sagitar wrote:
what's this random scenario thingie I keep hearing about.
how does that work.


It lets you create a scenario from scratch randomly, giving you a realistic (though not necessarily historical) engagement that is generally balanced for both players.

Using dice rolls and charts, the date, quality of forces, and other details are determined. Victory points are assigned based on what size and quality of forces you select and then can be spent on additional units for Defenders, etc.

The RSG thus gives you a nearly infinite number of scenarios to play. It's like a whole other game!

CC has three general "styles" of scenarios:
(1) Historical Scenarios based on real battles.
(2) The RSG scenarios which are nearly limitless.
(3) Campaign settings which connect individual scenarios (like in the Stalingrad pack or C3i magazine issues).
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Thanks,

this game seems to have the potential of becomming a dayjob
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Mark Buetow
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sagitar wrote:
Thanks,

this game seems to have the potential of becomming a dayjob


If only! laugh
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Peter Appleton
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I would go for Europe myself - apart from the fact there is currently much more expansion material for it, I prefer the extra randomness of Europe over Pacific.

Don't get me wrong - Pacific is still great fun, but it just doesn't give you that wonderfaul sense of battlefield chaos that Europe does.
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Chick Lewis
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This fits into your category of "Any other information to help (me) decide."

I think you will be happier with Europe.

Since you seem to live in Romania, you may want in a year or so to expand your game with CC:M because the Romanian units are a potent force in CC:M. If they are available to me in a Random Scenario Generator game, I will usually choose them. I have won four times and only lost once while commanding Romanians. They can kick Russian butt !

Chick
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For some more detail of the Europe game as well as the Random Scenario generator, see my review. Here's an excerpt:
Quote:
Random Scenario Generator

Initial: Good
Current: Very Good

I didn't appreciate the RSG as much when i first opened the game. Not knowing too much about how it played out, i couldn't understand what all the choices in the RSG meant.

Now I know.

This is simply one of the strongest parts of this game. Playing scenario X over and over again, you'll likely find a winning strategy after a while. Set up on this side of the map and use thse forces in this cover to provide base of fire, rinse, repeat. That could get old.

The fact that you can potentially play as attacker or defender from each of the 4 map edges on 12 different maps (24 with med, more with the BPs) leads to 96 possible map setups (192 with med, more with the BPs)! And that's before you've even figured out which of the 2 axis or 4 allied nationalities you're playing!! Throw that in and we're at 576 possible combination (1152 incl. med) of map choice, map orientation, posture, and nationality.

Now throw in objectives that change, the 3 sizes of forces (company, detachment, platoon), the 3 types of forces (elite, line, green), and all the fortification (mines, wire, bunkers, trenches, foxholes) combinations.

We haven't even factored in which nationality, size, and type of forces you're opponent is using.

WOW!


So yeah. I really like the random scenario system. It's the heart and soul of the game.

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Chad Jensen
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Still my favorite way to play the game (when I get a chance!).
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Cristian Mihaescu
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Thank you very much to all!
I followed your advices and I just bought CC:Europe, now I'm learning it.
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