Recommend
12 
 Thumb up
 Hide
75 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Going to church, or not rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
This Guy
United States
Durham
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Until my wife and I were married, I think we only went to church for a non-life event like marriage or baptism once. And that was when visiting her parents during Christmas.

Fast forward 10 years. Now that we have a child, church seems a lot more appealing to my wife. And I totally get that. The problem is that I no longer believe in God.

Except that's not totally true. If I totally didn't believe in God, I wouldn't get angrier and angrier at him throughout the service. I wouldn't have sat during the portions you're supposed to stand, with angry defiance in my heart.

If it was all make believe, what's the problem with waving my fingers over my chest or saying amen? Gestures and words, no big deal.

I've said something similar before, but it's been a couple years since I experienced the emotional truth of it: I believe in God just enough to be furious at him.

During the hymn, when the lyrics talked about how God removes the wicked from their thrones, and fed the poor, and so on, I just sat there boiling, saying, "No he doesn't," in my head after each line.

After two tries I told my wife I thought going to church together might drive us apart rather than bring us together. I'm much happier when I stay far away enough from it that I can maintain my non-belief in God without having to confront my anger about it.

She agreed, because my anger was palpable to her during those services. I wish I didn't have the reaction, but until I go through some serious therapy, or experience an According-to-Hoyle miracle, I'm probably stuck.

So, I'm curious how the rest of you deal with a religious divide on Sundays.
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Sanders
United States
Henderson
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
DNA results:Scottish, Dutch, English, Irish, German, French, Iberian Peninsula = 100% American!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aetheros wrote:
Until my wife and I were married, I think we only went to church for a non-life event like marriage or baptism once. At that was when visiting her parents during Christmas.

Fast forward 10 years. Now that we have a child, church seems a lot more appealing to my wife. And I totally get that. The problem is that I no longer believe in God.

Except that's not totally true. If I totally didn't believe in God, I wouldn't get angrier and angrier at him throughout the service. I wouldn't have sat during the portions you're supposed to stand, with angry defiance in my heart.

If it was all make believe, what's the problem with waving my fingers over my chest or saying amen? Gestures and words, no big deal.

I've said something similar before, but it's been a couple years since I experienced the emotional truth of it: I believe in God just enough to be furious at him.

During the hymn, when the lyrics talked about how God removes the wicked from their thrones, and fed the poor, and so on, I just sat there boiling, saying, "No he doesn't," in my head after each line.

After two tries I told my wife I thought going to church together might drive us apart rather than bring us together. I'm much happier when I stay far away enough from it that I can maintain my non-belief in God without having to confront my anger about it.

She agreed, because my anger was palpable to her during those services. I wish I didn't have the reaction, but until I go through some serious therapy, or experience an According-to-Hoyle miracle, I'm probably stuck.

So, I'm curious how the rest of you deal with a religious divide on Sundays.


I admire your candor - I really do. My first thought is that you are in a position that is much more acceptable to God than someone who doesn't feel anything or give a flip. He says, "I would rather you would be cold or hot. But if you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth" (paraphrased by memory).
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawson
United States
Greenville
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aetheros wrote:
So, I'm curious how the rest of you deal with a religious divide on Sundays.


For the most part, I attend church on Sundays with our two children while my husband stays home.

I don't have time to get into it now, but I'll check back in when I get a chance.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Weckermann
Canada
Powell River
British Coumbia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I do know i pray a lot when i ride motorcycle, but still do not attend on Sundays, and rarely on holidays. I do find co-workers tend to stay home Sundays while rest of family attends. Seems to be the only alone time a guy can find.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wray Cason
United States
Everett
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Aetheros wrote:
Until my wife and I were married, I think we only went to church for a non-life event like marriage or baptism once. At that was when visiting her parents during Christmas.

Fast forward 10 years. Now that we have a child, church seems a lot more appealing to my wife. And I totally get that. The problem is that I no longer believe in God.

Except that's not totally true. If I totally didn't believe in God, I wouldn't get angrier and angrier at him throughout the service. I wouldn't have sat during the portions you're supposed to stand, with angry defiance in my heart.

If it was all make believe, what's the problem with waving my fingers over my chest or saying amen? Gestures and words, no big deal.

I've said something similar before, but it's been a couple years since I experienced the emotional truth of it: I believe in God just enough to be furious at him.

During the hymn, when the lyrics talked about how God removes the wicked from their thrones, and fed the poor, and so on, I just sat there boiling, saying, "No he doesn't," in my head after each line.

After two tries I told my wife I thought going to church together might drive us apart rather than bring us together. I'm much happier when I stay far away enough from it that I can maintain my non-belief in God without having to confront my anger about it.

She agreed, because my anger was palpable to her during those services. I wish I didn't have the reaction, but until I go through some serious therapy, or experience an According-to-Hoyle miracle, I'm probably stuck.

So, I'm curious how the rest of you deal with a religious divide on Sundays.

I think you know something of my thoughts in this matter based on our limited past correspondence. I think all I would like to say for now is that there are people who would like to help. You don't need to feel stuck. I get the impression that you have a lot of pent up stuff that needs to get out. I recommend getting it out with the help of caring people. Thanks for your remarkable candor. It is rather unusual to see in my experience.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dwayne Hendrickson
United States
Oklahoma City
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Right now I think the best parts are this:

* You are willing to let your wife go to church and not mock or belittle her for it.

* You are really honest about your feelings towards God. That is very very healthy. I have been where you are now (sometimes I feel like that even now) and through honest conversations with God and independent study I've found that everything that people attribute to God doesn't always jive with who God really is.

* Your anger might not be towards God but towards the church. I've known folks that get along fine until someone tells them how they are supposed to talk/interact/pray/worship.

Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Why? I can't give you a general answer for every circumstance but I believe that if individual case were studied we might now some of the answers. Sometimes I think life is like staring at huge Persian rug through a microscope. All we can see is the fiber that makes up one strand and we will never see the pattern in the whole rug.

Keep being honest, talk to some folks you trust, and keep reading & studying.
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
フィル
Australia
Ashfield
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I am the wasp / that burrows in! I am the shriek / of twilight din!
Avatar
mbmbmb
Aetheros wrote:
Until my wife and I were married, I think we only went to church for a non-life event like marriage or baptism once. And that was when visiting her parents during Christmas.

Fast forward 10 years. Now that we have a child, church seems a lot more appealing to my wife. And I totally get that. The problem is that I no longer believe in God.

Except that's not totally true. If I totally didn't believe in God, I wouldn't get angrier and angrier at him throughout the service. I wouldn't have sat during the portions you're supposed to stand, with angry defiance in my heart.

If it was all make believe, what's the problem with waving my fingers over my chest or saying amen? Gestures and words, no big deal.

I've said something similar before, but it's been a couple years since I experienced the emotional truth of it: I believe in God just enough to be furious at him.

During the hymn, when the lyrics talked about how God removes the wicked from their thrones, and fed the poor, and so on, I just sat there boiling, saying, "No he doesn't," in my head after each line.

After two tries I told my wife I thought going to church together might drive us apart rather than bring us together. I'm much happier when I stay far away enough from it that I can maintain my non-belief in God without having to confront my anger about it.

She agreed, because my anger was palpable to her during those services. I wish I didn't have the reaction, but until I go through some serious therapy, or experience an According-to-Hoyle miracle, I'm probably stuck.

So, I'm curious how the rest of you deal with a religious divide on Sundays.

Maybe you and the missus could just do the unarguably positive church stuff, you know, soup kitchens and the like. I'm an atheist but I used to work for a church organisation that delivered food to AIDS sufferers, taught English to new migrants, etc. Although not a single christian worked there or ever helped us out, the church funded us and backed us 100%. It sounds like you're angry with the church for its hypocrisy, so something like that could be a good way for you to use the morally dubious church as a means to a positive end, and still keep the wife on side.

Like Wray said, if you ever want to chat about spiritual fulfilment, I can hook you up. Booze helps too.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gregory Amstutz
United States
Chula Vista
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aetheros wrote:
If I totally didn't believe in God, I wouldn't get angrier and angrier at him throughout the service. I wouldn't have sat during the portions you're supposed to stand, with angry defiance in my heart....

I believe in God just enough to be furious at him.


For me and my wife, there is no divide. We both attend, participate, and believe.

But this isn't about me. Like others, I appreciate your candor, and I believe that God does too. But the real question is exactly why are you mad at God? There's where you start.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
フィル
Australia
Ashfield
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I am the wasp / that burrows in! I am the shriek / of twilight din!
Avatar
mbmbmb
Do you really buy that?
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bernhardt
United States
saratoga springs
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Try to talk her into heading over to the Unitarian Church. It will be less "christy" than she probably likes, but you won't fly into rages because 1/4 of their congregations are atheists.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T. Nomad
Netherlands
Den Bosch
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shenomad and I had this conversation last week. We agreed that since there are few community groups that mimic church, we'll take our kid(s) there. We'll show them that church is a place where we get to hang out with other friendly Korean speakers, and where someone tells stories to amuse us all or to remind us of important morals. Kind of like Aesop. Some people think those stories are real, but mummy and daddy don't.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SH W
Singapore
Singapore
Singapore
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aetheros wrote:

During the hymn, when the lyrics talked about how God removes the wicked from their thrones, and fed the poor, and so on, I just sat there boiling, saying, "No he doesn't," in my head after each line.

What is needed is that you need to compose your own hymns. It should be no surprise that most worship song lyrics are overly simplistic, and the new ones even more so.

A song with proper lyrics would go something like this:

God removes the wicked from their thrones
As testified in the bible like some of the kings in Kings 1&2
But history has also shown
There are many times when he doesn't
Even David and Solomon were not that great either
So I'll give thanks for the times he did (remove them)
But for the times he intervened too late,
I hate God for that

God fed the poor
Like with manna and Jesus and the 5000
But usually it is the job of Israel and the church
And this one confusing time where Mary wasted her perfume on Jesus' feet
Instead of selling it for the poor
And the Catholic church has many opulent stuff
Though that helps some in worship (not to Kevin though)
So I praise God for the times of direct intervention
The times he works through humans, I'm fine
The times he lets children in Africa starve, I curse him
Though I probably should curse the dictators there too
19 
 Thumb up
0.66
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Benavides
Germany
Wuppertal
Nordrhein-Westfalen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Honestly, Aetheros, I think you're just fine. Everyone has something that just ticks them off to no end. Some people hate Liberals, others Conservatives, the most popular complaint I hear is a hatred of "stupid people." Everyone has something they just cannot stand. Yours is Religion, God, and/or the Church. It may be a specific Religion, God, or Church, or perhaps all of them together and you simply take it out on the one you come into contact the most. No matter the case, I think you are perfectly sane in your emotional dislikes and your incredibly rational decision to limit your exposure to the cause of your aggitation shows at least a certain level maturity.

The problem you're going to face in this community, or almost any other for that matter, is that there are alot of people who happen to really like what you are rejecting. BGG is far too nice a place to have many people openly complain about the fact that you don't like God, but there may soon be entire pages of your thread filled with the phrases: "Thank you for being open, but I disagree with you.", "Why do you hate God so much?", and "I (we) go to church and pray all the time, I don't see your problem with it."

Your post, if I understood correctly, was not supposed to be about whether or not we agree with your position, nor what it is that formulated your opinions. Only that we are supposed to share in the same way you did. To be open about whether or not we have such problems and if so, how do we deal with them. In an endeavor to keep (or at least return) to that topic, I'll tell you in just a few sentences exactly what happens in our house.

My wife and I are both entirely non-religious and thus there isn't much cause for religious division within our home. Most of the problems we have on religion actually come from the fact that her family can barely live without the thought of the church being the glue of the family. We don't believe that a family that needs outside force to stay together is healthy. Besides, I argue that we are actually more religiously adherent than her family is anyway. I mean, we actually use the sabath day to sleep in all morning. You know, "resting" just like we're supposed to.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SH W
Singapore
Singapore
Singapore
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kamikazi wrote:
Besides, I argue that we are actually more religiously adherent than her family is anyway. I mean, we actually use the sabath day to sleep in all morning. You know, "resting" just like we're supposed to.


Nonsense! There is no rest as "restful" as sleeping during a church sermon.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Goo
United States
Yorba Linda
California
flag msg tools
badge
Try to be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations.
Avatar
mb
Maybe it's time for a hard look at the church/denomination you go to. A few years ago, I got to wondering why I considered myself a member of the denomination of the church I was attending. I realized it was basically familiarity. When my wife and I first got married, we shopped around for churches and really did not look outside the box of familiarity.

A few years ago, I wanted to get to the bottom of it. I figured if I'm going to be protestant I need to know exactly what I'm protesting.

I started studying the history of the church. It was only Catholicism for an awfully long time so I bought the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it (turns out most Catholics misrepresent what the church teaches and the worst offenders are ex-Catholics).

Then I read up on the Great Schism. I imagined if I were Catholic and the Schism happened, which way would I go? Eastern Orthodox or Roman Rite?

Then I read up on the Protestant Reformation. What was everyone ticked off about? What was their solution? What was the Catholic Church's response? Now, where would I stand?

Then you can check out the splintering from there: anabaptists, reformed churches (Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc.). Study the core and see where you might fit.

Handy diagram:


I think it's important to distinguish between church and God. I think it's important to wipe the proverbial slate clean and examine/question your beliefs in order to become teachable. I mean, don't try to find a church that matches what you already believe. Assume your beliefs have become watered down, unsubstantial, biased, and in many ways down right made up by yourself or some dude with big hair and tie some Sunday morning.

Having kids is a great time to go through this process because you have to decide, "What is it that I believe again? What do I want my kids to believe? Or what kind of foundation do I want them to be able to build their own ideas off of? Do I trust the leadership of this church or that church in partnering with me in teaching my children about God and faith?"

Afterall, this constant scrutinizing of your faith is a lifelong thing. I mean this is what your faith is. Not ideas about the thing, but the thing itself.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
...
South Africa
Cape Town
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Latria wrote:
Nonsense! There is no rest as "restful" as sleeping during a church sermon.

I've never been in a church with anywhere comfortable to sleep.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Michealson
United States
Maple Grove
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Aetheros wrote:


During the hymn, when the lyrics talked about how God removes the wicked from their thrones, and fed the poor, and so on, I just sat there boiling, saying, "No he doesn't," in my head after each line.


Yes he does. You may not see the means by which God deals with the wicked or helps the Godly, but that does not mean the wicked will not reap the fruits of their labor.

It could be that the wicked person is now the poor beggar for whom you feel some pity. It could be that God has dealt with that wicked person and you simply do not know the background story of the beggar.


This is troubling for me. It's as if you're saying some beggars probably deserve to be homeless and live in poverty. And if so, God probably dealt their fate to them because they deserved it. Which begs the question; why the fuck doesn't God deal the same fate to all the fat cats that have cheated the system?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Benavides
Germany
Wuppertal
Nordrhein-Westfalen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Don't even try, Mrs. Pank.

That was merely a simple example. The larger point is that God does deal with the wicked, albeit in ways that may not be obvious to the person seeking vengence.


Or perhaps he doesn't "do" anything, and you are simply explaining an occasional lack of justice in the world with the tired line "He'll get his in the end, even if we never see it."

Honestly, which do you feel is a more rational conclusion? That the great invisible creating entity in the sky punishes each and every wrong doer in ways sometimes unseen to us? Or that the universe has no real feelings one way or the other and that deeds done at the expense of others simply increases (but does not guarantee) that a deed will be done against them?

One of them is simple cause and effect, while the other is akin to "The great Juju under the sea did it!"

Either way, this is not a thread about the nature of God, it is supposed to be about the nature of our relationships within our respective families and how we deal with the presence or lack of divisions over church worship. There have to be a dozen or more threads about what you want to talk about. You should find one or make another.

Edit: Sorry for being rude. Toothaches make me cranky. Edited to sound marginally less forceful.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Benavides
Germany
Wuppertal
Nordrhein-Westfalen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Kamikazi wrote:

Edit: Sorry for being rude. Toothaches make me cranky. Edited to sound marginally less forceful.
Rude? That was rude? Stick around. I'll show you rude.


It was rude for me. When I was a prison guard everyone knew you didn't disrespect someone who hadn't disrespected you first unless you meant to start a fight. I think of most BGG members as equals, so I try to avoid being outright disrespectful to anyone on here.


Anyway, either post something on topic or quit posting in this thread. Being reasonably guilty of it myself at this point, I shall do the same.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lynette
United States
Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
Yep, I am a girl Scientist. Come for the breasts; Stay for the brains!
badge
For as long as I shall live I will testify to love; I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aetheros wrote:

Fast forward 10 years. Now that we have a child, church seems a lot more appealing to my wife. And I totally get that. The problem is that I no longer believe in God.

Except that's not totally true. If I totally didn't believe in God, I wouldn't get angrier and angrier at him throughout the service. I wouldn't have sat during the portions you're supposed to stand, with angry defiance in my heart.

If it was all make believe, what's the problem with waving my fingers over my chest or saying amen? Gestures and words, no big deal.

I've said something similar before, but it's been a couple years since I experienced the emotional truth of it: I believe in God just enough to be furious at him.


I cannot help you with your religious divide... however I can offer you this. God is big enough to handle your anger. Maybe if you take some time to actually vent it at Him ... He can help you understand/resolve your issues.

I know a lot of people think being angry at God is a big sin, but I have always found that when I take my anger out directly at/on Him... eventually we work things out ... He helps me understand His goals and my roles/responsibilities within that framework. It is when I don't take my anger directly out at God that I end up in a damaging place for myself and others.

*Hugs* for you dear Aetheros and I sincerely hope you find a path to peace.

9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gary Page
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
mrspank wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Aetheros wrote:


During the hymn, when the lyrics talked about how God removes the wicked from their thrones, and fed the poor, and so on, I just sat there boiling, saying, "No he doesn't," in my head after each line.


Yes he does. You may not see the means by which God deals with the wicked or helps the Godly, but that does not mean the wicked will not reap the fruits of their labor.

It could be that the wicked person is now the poor beggar for whom you feel some pity. It could be that God has dealt with that wicked person and you simply do not know the background story of the beggar.


This is troubling for me. It's as if you're saying some beggars probably deserve to be homeless and live in poverty. And if so, God probably dealt their fate to them because they deserved it. Which begs the question; why the fuck doesn't God dealing the same fate to all the fat cats that have cheated the system?
Don't even try, Mrs. Pank.

That was merely a simple example. The larger point is that God does deal with the wicked, albeit in ways that may not be obvious to the person seeking vengence.


If you can't see it, what makes you think it happens?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zé Mário
Portugal
Porto
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Going to church (weddings, basically) makes me mad.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zé Mário
Portugal
Porto
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Yet you go?

Sometimes I can't escape.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United Kingdom
Oxford
Oxon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
"religious divide"? Only if you're superstitious, IMNSHO.

Weddings are OK (as long as they're someone else's) but wakes are much better - you know what to say about the person concerned, rather than tryng to look into the future, and the booze is usualy better as well (and the illegal stuff if you're that way inclined).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
VETRHUS of Rogaland
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
badge
An ash I know, Yggdrasil its name. With water white is the great tree wet; thence come the dews that fall in the dales. Green by Urth's well does it ever grow.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Our church does something called, "Theology on Tap."

Basically, we head out to a bar which is quiet enough where we can have a conversation and have fellowship while drinking beer, wine, or liquor.

I think non-Jews have missed the value of "holy-argument" which is a tradition of orthodox Jews. I cannot remember the exact name for the practice, but they'd go to synagogue and gather around the Torah and argue about what it meant.

That is really appealing to me.

In my newest christian exercise, as an Episcopal, I appreciate that we are expected to apply reason to our theological discourse. This affords us the ability to "wrestle with God" like Jacob did. (Heh, it's Biblical). We aren't viewed as apostates if we disagree...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.