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Subject: Another way to use the Dominion:Seaside coin tokens – Tariff rss

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Drinky Drinky
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Came up with a new way to use the D:S tokens. We were disappointed the coins are not used more often, and only with the Pirate Ship. The coins are too good of quality to use for only one card/deck.

So here is the card we “invented” to go along with the seaside theme.


Tariff
Cost : 4
Type : Action

Play by choosing one of the following 2 actions:

1) Use the card to place a coin on a pile of your choice to increase the cost of that pile/deck. This does not increase the cost of those type globally, only cards taken from the pile. Do not trash the card after playing, only discard with the rest of your hand

2) Use the card to ignore all coins played on a pile when you go to your buy phase. The card works for all buys during that turn. It is as if you are buying the non-tariff side good. Do not trash the card after playing, only discard with the rest of your hand. So if there are say 3 coins on a province making it cost 11, playing this card (and not placing a coin on a pile this turn) you can then buy the province for the normal cost of 8.


* Also I recommend not playing shake this card in the same game as Pirate Ship arrrh.
You can use the blank cards with Dominion Seaside, since there are 10 cards.

Tariff allows you to inflate the price on decks of your choosing. Depending on cards in hand, Tariff will cause you to think twice on waiting to play a Tariff to buy a higher cost item more cheaply. It also allows you to put certain cards out of reach that may be in another person's strategy. Tariff also allows you more chances to play with the metal coins that come with the game.

I made the cost 4 as opposed to a cost of 5 since this card was found to be less desireable than other 5 cost cards. It really does add a nice twist in inflating the cost of goods and services. Did I mention it is another way to use the coins
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James Ridgway
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Actually, I really like this. This is much more what I wanted Embargo to be.
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Drew Spencer
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Cool idea. It seems overpriced to me at first glance. Maybe add +1 Card, +1 Action to it? Early in the game it does next to nothing for you.
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Twinge
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banyan wrote:
Cool idea. It seems overpriced to me at first glance. Maybe add +1 Card, +1 Action to it? Early in the game it does next to nothing for you.


That's likely be too much. While the current card has no direct benefit to you, making something cost even 1 more can really shut down a lot of stuff. Gardens at 5? Gold at 7? Etc.

I do agree it is still probably a little weak at 4, though. I'm thinking +1 Coin, which fits thematically and isn't as strong as +1C/+1A.
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Craig Somerton
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That is one of the better fan card ideas.

Agree, cost 4 is probably a tad pricey, but like Embargo, it could really change the flow of the game.

Perhaps cost 3, or add a + 1 coin or +1 Action to make it worth buying.
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Mason Louie
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I like it --part Embargo, part reverse Bridge-- a strong, but balanced brake card. But I think your wording is clunky. Copying Embargo:

Tariff
Action
cost 4
+2 coin
+1 buy
Choose one:
Put a Tariff token on one supply pile.
or
Name a supply pile. Ignore all Tariff tokens on that pile until end of turn.
---------
When a player buys a card, he must pay an addition 1 coin for each Tariff token on that pile.
The cost of a supply card increases by an additional 1 coin for each Tariff token on its pile. [version 3 edit]

I opted to be like Woodcutter than Market for several reasons:
1) In spite of the +2 coin, Woodcutter's pretty weak.
2) You really want more buys to make the second choice more interesting in more directions, especially during lategame.
3) It's more useful in early game. Which means the card has a longer lifetime, which means more interesting interactions. Embargos do not cost 2 because they are useless.
4) The terminalness blunts the can't-buy-anything situation which would certainly happen if it was a cantrip. (First I'm gonna Tariff the Tariff pile, then I'm gonna buy up all the Tariffs, then I'm gonna jack up the prices on everything, and then do something else cause I still have 5 cards and an action left.) This actually suggests the cost should be 3 actually despite Woodcutter also costing 3 because the first guy to Tariff the Tariff pile will push it in 5 cost land and thereby stands a decent shot at running away with the game.
5) The extra money adds a thematic corruption side of the Tariff: you get a little extra spending money, but everyone suffers for it.
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Eugene van der Pijll
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masonlouie wrote:
When a player buys a card, he must pay an addition 1 coin for each Tariff token on that pile.

The original design raised the cost of cards on that supply pile. E.g. if you put a tariff on a cost 4 card, you cannot gain it with the Workshop. Or: if you put tariffs on silver and gold, another player's mine is now worthless.

Is the change intentional?
 
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Mason Louie
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pijll wrote:
masonlouie wrote:
When a player buys a card, he must pay an addition 1 coin for each Tariff token on that pile.

The original design raised the cost of cards on that supply pile. E.g. if you put a tariff on a cost 4 card, you cannot gain it with the Workshop. Or: if you put tariffs on silver and gold, another player's mine is now worthless.

Is the change intentional?

No, that's an artifact from copying Embargo. I like the Gardens distortion aspect too.

Tariff (version 3)
Action
cost 3
+2 coin, +1 buy
Choose one:
Put a Tariff token on a supply pile.
- or -
Name a supply pile. Ignore all Tariff tokens on that pile until end of turn.
---------
The cost of a supply card increases by an additional 1 coin for each Tariff token on its pile.
 
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wodan wodan
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Seems as though you end up using it on the Province stack until they are impossible to buy. Which means that everyone has to buy Tariffs just to take Provinces.
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Brandon George
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wodan46 wrote:
Seems as though you end up using it on the Province stack until they are impossible to buy. Which means that everyone has to buy Tariffs just to take Provinces.


I had the same thought. I would probably alter the card to put a hard limit on the cost of any card in the supply. Probably 9 or 10. Otherwise Tariff becomes required to compete (barring Gardens or other alternate victory routes being realistic depending on available cards).
 
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Twinge
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wodan46 wrote:
Seems as though you end up using it on the Province stack until they are impossible to buy. Which means that everyone has to buy Tariffs just to take Provinces.


It's always somewhat interesting to see the widespread "buying provinces = how to win" mentality that is so rampant - and indeed, probably something I myself and the groups I play with tend to also have. But provinces aren't the game; emptying the duchy stack and two others can quite effectively end the game as well and can definitely be a winning strategy (e.g. Bureaucrat+Duchies vs ChapelDeck can be quite effective). Saying this kind of makes me wonder if I should be trying to load up on duchies a little more often and see how effective it might be =)

My point being, if Tariff is properly balanced, this would not be that much of an issue. If they're spending their time and resources blocking off provinces, you'll be spending time building up a stronger deck - this stronger deck can either afford the expensive provinces anyway, buy duchies instead, or get a single Tariff to get past the cost, etc. Options are still available and interesting -- which, well, makes the card concept a good one I think =)


I'd say the original card is too weak, and Mason's latest version is very clearly ridiculous (it's a strictly better Woodcutter, and while Woodcutter is somewhat weak it certainly isn't awful or unplayable). The Tariff power isn't super-strong or anything, but nor is it weak - making something more expensive for everyone and/or possibly cheaper for yourself is a reasonably powerful effect and should be the main focus of the card, not treated as a side benefit worth only a fragment of the card cost.

I'll probably have to think on it a bit to figure what would be a fairly balanced card (and obviously play with it to say accurately). I think it giving a coin is good and giving any actions is bad. Buys or cards seem less bad than actions but still subpar; again, the focus should be the effect.

Other things to look at more in depth include its interaction with the likes of Remodel and especially Mine, and how such cards can be improved and/or weakened by the Tariff - and if the card text should be modified to prevent/allow such things. One example - buying a handful of say Festivals, making them cost 1 more, and then being able to convert them into Provinces with a Remodel.
 
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Destry Miller
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The obvious first use is to put a tariff on the Tariff cards before trying to block other cards. It's obviously more powerful than Woodcutter at +2 coin +1 buy, yet pricing it higher makes the first turn advantage that much more.

Maybe only +1 coin, +1 buy and costing 2. That way it's still affordable after a couple tariffs are stacked on it.

Tariff
Action
cost 2
+1 coin, +1 buy
Choose one:
Put a Tariff token on a supply pile.
- or -
Name a supply pile. Ignore all Tariff tokens on that pile until end of turn.

 
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Mason Louie
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Twinge wrote:
I'd say the original card is too weak, and Mason's latest version is very clearly ridiculous (it's a strictly better Woodcutter, and while Woodcutter is somewhat weak it certainly isn't awful or unplayable). The Tariff power isn't super-strong or anything, but nor is it weak - making something more expensive for everyone and/or possibly cheaper for yourself is a reasonably powerful effect and should be the main focus of the card, not treated as a side benefit worth only a fragment of the card cost.

Clearly you are blind.

You're making the quintessential Dominion design error: Cost == Value. By such logic, Gold should cost 1 (or 2, tops) more than Silver, Chapel is a really lousy card that no one would ever want, and Adventurer is 300% better than Chapel.

It doesn't matter that my version 3 is strictly better than Woodcutter. The cost of the card is not a reflection of its value, but the timing, potential, and necessity of a card. Lighthouse is so much better than Moat that it's not funny even though they cost the same.

In Dominion, the strongest cost barrier is the difference between 4 and 5. This difference is why I costed version 3 at 3 coin-- because the card itself can effectively push its cost from 4 to 5 easily, which I'm sure will dawn on players much like the eventual realization that my deck might be better if it didn't have these Coppers and Estates in it.
 
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Scott O'Brien
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Just a thought (and I have not yet recieved my seaside-- its waiting at the warehouse for my preorder of die moor)

we should make it so that the person who played the tariff card collects a coin directly from anyone who buys a card from that stack.
This coin would be used on that persons next turn.
 
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Drew Spencer
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sao123 wrote:
Just a thought (and I have not yet recieved my seaside-- its waiting at the warehouse for my preorder of die moor)

we should make it so that the person who played the tariff card collects a coin directly from anyone who buys a card from that stack.
This coin would be used on that persons next turn.


That is a cool idea. It's pretty different from what the OP was going for, I think, but that is a really cool idea for a card.
 
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Mason Louie
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sao123 wrote:
we should make it so that the person who played the tariff card collects a coin directly from anyone who buys a card from that stack.
This coin would be used on that persons next turn.

This card?

Entitlement
Action
cost 3
Place an Entitlement token of your color onto a supply pile.
-------
When a player gains or buys a card with an Entitlement token of your color, for each Entitlement token, gain a Mammon token which may be exchanged for +1 coin during your turn.

I nixed the token bypass decision because the nature of the mechanic is in this direction; it's the whole-hog version.

It's definitely a complete idea, but I don't like it at all. It's Monopoly's keystone idea which itself is a general human phenomenon (hence the card's name). Dominion is a game about progressive deck construction. OTOH entitlement-rentierism is all about status quo by enervating agents of change. Although stability is important in meatspace, there's already too much of this in reality for my taste. Simplifying and stylizing it as a game rule doesn't strike me as much fun especially in a game as dynamic as Dominion.

It's a very different from Tariff even without the token bypass. If costs are higher but no one gains, ppl will grumble but accept it. However if an individual is perceived as getting ahead at the expensive of others, the others will retaliate even if they too participate in the scam (the whole "govt helping others is waste, but govt helping me is just doing its job" cognitive dissonance).

One of the key principles of Dominion is to disallow retaliation and kingmaking, but it can be done nonetheless. So a more subtle way of following this principle is to not introduce cards that enforce external inequity like Entitlement. So it's "you won cause you built a better deck, good work" instead of "you won because you fleeced us suckers and I will never forgive you for it!"
 
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Scott O'Brien
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masonlouie wrote:
sao123 wrote:
we should make it so that the person who played the tariff card collects a coin directly from anyone who buys a card from that stack.
This coin would be used on that persons next turn.

This card?

Entitlement
Action
cost 3
Place an Entitlement token of your color onto a supply pile.
-------
When a player gains or buys a card with an Entitlement token of your color, for each Entitlement token, gain a Mammon token which may be exchanged for +1 coin during your turn.

I nixed the token bypass decision because the nature of the mechanic is in this direction; it's the whole-hog version.

It's definitely a complete idea, but I don't like it at all. It's Monopoly's keystone idea which itself is a general human phenomenon (hence the card's name). Dominion is a game about progressive deck construction. OTOH entitlement-rentierism is all about status quo by enervating agents of change. Although stability is important in meatspace, there's already too much of this in reality for my taste. Simplifying and stylizing it as a game rule doesn't strike me as much fun especially in a game as dynamic as Dominion.

It's a very different from Tariff even without the token bypass. If costs are higher but no one gains, ppl will grumble but accept it. However if an individual is perceived as getting ahead at the expensive of others, the others will retaliate even if they too participate in the scam (the whole "govt helping others is waste, but govt helping me is just doing its job" cognitive dissonance).

One of the key principles of Dominion is to disallow retaliation and kingmaking, but it can be done nonetheless. So a more subtle way of following this principle is to not introduce cards that enforce external inequity like Entitlement. So it's "you won cause you built a better deck, good work" instead of "you won because you fleeced us suckers and I will never forgive you for it!"


no, thats somewhat different than what I was thinking.

Import Tariff
choose 1:

Choose a pile of action cards to place a tariff token on. While token remains, all cards of that pile cost +1. This +1 is placed on that stack of cards in the form of a coin token.

+2 cards immediately

or

Remove your tariff token and all coins accumulated on it to be used on your next turn.

+1 buy next turn


A player may only have 1 Tariff token in play at any time.
 
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Vince Lupo
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Twinge wrote:
It's always somewhat interesting to see the widespread "buying provinces = how to win" mentality that is so rampant...



I agree. I make a lot of different configurations to try out various aspects of the game and try to make the game about something other than provinces. Often I can make the game about duchies, gardens, and other things based on what cards I have selected.
 
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