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Subject: Private Schultz rss

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Brian Crawford
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Rather than hijack the other thread on the worst battlefield in wwii I thought I would post this as a new thread instead out of respect.

************************************

Here is a link to a web page that I just stumbled on to looking for another photo. I thought it was fitting to share this with you

http://www.orderofmen.com/forums/intelligence-command/200-tr...

It was supposedly published in a Norwegian Newspaper. How can you not feel for this guy? He is among the heroes IMHO of WWII if the story is true. He did by not doing. Has anyone else ever heard of this story before? I would like to verify this.

Brian


Edit--

Let me copy and paste some of the story

************

I often think that the term hero is used sometimes more readily than it should. But I had never heard of someone being this brave before.

Private Joseph Schultz didn't die saving anyone. He didn't didn't die in view of the public in an attempt to set an example. He didn't try and go down fighting, he just silently walked to his death because he knew that following his orders were wrong. We are lucky that a photographer captured this picture and story so that others can actually know about the story:



This picture shows a young German soldier walking to his own death. A death by execution conducted by his own brothers in arms

Jospeh Schultz was a German soldier on the Eastern Front. On the 20th of July 1941, he along with seven of his brothers in arms were sent out on what they thought to be a routine mission. After a short march they soon understood that they were on a quite different mission than what they were used to: Ahead of them, they saw fourteen captured local civilians who were blindfolded , positioned up against a wall. The 8 soldiers in Schultz platoon were halted 10-15 meters away, and an NCO ordered them to execute every one of the civilian. Seven of the soldiers took aim, and in the silence that followed you could only hear the sound of a rifle beeing dropped. Jospeh Schultz disobeyed a direct order, dropped his rifle and walked slowly towards the 14 civilians which only heard cautious footsteps in the grass infront of them. The young Schultz positioned himself together with the soon-to-be executed civilians, and choosed death instead of killing hopeless civilians. A few seconds later 14 civilians and 1 German soldier laid dead in the grass. He was executed by his own brothers in arms by order of the NCO.

This action shows that its actually possible to do evil things. Its possible to be a free-thinking morally human-being no matter what is happening around you. But, no other of his 7 brothers in arms followed his example. It was no revolt. No large-scale deserting. This is no hero-story. Neither a story about a victim. No-one was saved by Joseph Schultz action. Everyone were shot. Everyone plus one more. But he was a moral example. He refused to fire because its wrong to fire. It was no different on how many that were shot. But it was a difference to him. And to us.

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Larry Welborn
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Thanks for posting this.
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Brian C wrote:
No-one was saved by Joseph Schultz action.


Humanity is saved with acts such as these, in a moral, rather than religious sense.
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I have often said that war will only end when those who are called upon to fight them refuse to fight.
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Michael Dorosh
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Brian C wrote:
This action shows that its actually possible to do evil things.


No, it shows that its possible to do criminal things. Evil is an invention of Hollywood script writers. The problem with criminal things is that anyone is capable of them. That's what makes guys like Private Schultz heroes, and the Nazis such chilling villains. Anyone is capable of being either.

The problem with "criminal things", though, is that the "criminals" never think that they are actually criminal. See, "criminal" is a definition. The SS never saw themselves as "the baddies."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU

They thought they were doing perfectly sane, legitimate, humane things. That's what makes them so disgusting. And why it is so amazing that there were so few people like Private Schultz.
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Brian Crawford
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
Brian C wrote:
This action shows that its actually possible to do evil things.


No, it shows that its possible to do criminal things. Evil is an invention of Hollywood script writers. The problem with criminal things is that anyone is capable of them. That's what makes guys like Private Schultz heroes, and the Nazis such chilling villains. Anyone is capable of being either.

The problem with "criminal things", though, is that the "criminals" never think that they are actually criminal. See, "criminal" is a definition. The SS never saw themselves as "the baddies."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU

They thought they were doing perfectly sane, legitimate, humane things. That's what makes them so disgusting. And why it is so amazing that there were so few people like Private Schultz.


I just want to clarify that the quote above is not my writing as it appears as such in the quote but rather the quote from the article I noted in my original post

Everything below
*****
Edit--

Let me copy and paste some of the story
******

in my original post is copied and pasted from the source doc.

Regarding criminal and evil. I honestly do not see evil being a Hollywood creation. Hitler and Stalin were evil to the core and thus criminal in their actions.

Perhaps if more people like Private Schultz acted the way he did, the war might have been shortened. But the cost would have been a lot of good men. But I guess there is a price for anything.

I remember when I was in the Gulf in 1990-91, I asked myself if I could kill anyone. The answer I believe is yes. Given the situation where I was defending myself and my comrades I believe I could. But if ordered to kill an innocent civilian. I honestly do not think I could. I would be asking to speak with the JAG asap. I was in the Canadian military not the Wehrmacht and in 1941 in that era I am pretty sure that option wasn't open to them.

Regarding them doing legitimate things I think your right. The government of the day provided the legitimacy. But humane, I don't think a lot of things the Nazis did was humane nor could be viewed as humane by any sane person.

Heck I think there were at least 2 plots to kill Hitler in the 1930's. Too bad one of them didn't succeed. Anyway, this is a little off topic. I only wanted to post this because it was an interesting find and I wanted to show that there are good people on all sides of war.

Lets all agree not to have any more
 
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A little internet searching shows this to be from a 1950 film. Not listed in IMDB that I can find, it's supposedly a 13min film designed to teach folks about moral dilemmas.
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Michael Dorosh
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Brian C wrote:
Regarding criminal and evil. I honestly do not see evil being a Hollywood creation. Hitler and Stalin were evil to the core and thus criminal in their actions.

Perhaps if more people like Private Schultz acted the way he did, the war might have been shortened. But the cost would have been a lot of good men. But I guess there is a price for anything.

I remember when I was in the Gulf in 1990-91, I asked myself if I could kill anyone. The answer I believe is yes. Given the situation where I was defending myself and my comrades I believe I could. But if ordered to kill an innocent civilian. I honestly do not think I could. I would be asking to speak with the JAG asap. I was in the Canadian military not the Wehrmacht and in 1941 in that era I am pretty sure that option wasn't open to them.


Not only was that option open to them, that option was also open to the worst of the worst of the criminals, the einsatzgruppen.

Read HITLER'S WILLING EXECUTIONERS, or if you don't want to do that because of the controversy, read the other books that form the sources it was based on, especially the one on Police Battalion 101, ORDINARY MEN by Christopher Browning.

Yep, the guys who were responsible for the Holocaust largely did so willingly. In fact, they were given the option of opting out in many cases, but did so out of genuine conviction - not because they were "evil" but - here's the kicker - because they had the same basic drives you did in 1990. They wanted to serve their country, please their bosses, and do honour to their families. Some men did in fact exercise their option not to participate, and were apparently reassigned to other duties without repurcussions. There was an easy out for those that wanted it. The majority chose to participate in mass murder regardless.

In other words - they wanted to do it.

Quote:
Regarding them doing legitimate things I think your right. The government of the day provided the legitimacy. But humane, I don't think a lot of things the Nazis did was humane nor could be viewed as humane by any sane person.


Sane/insane are all points of view. You hit it on the head. It's all how you look at it. The Nazis clearly thought what they were doing was okay, The commandant of Auschwitz took the stand at Nuremberg and boasted that he killed 1.5 million prisoners, but that he didn't do it to make anyone "suffer." He didn't brook gratuitous cruelty, and if any of his guards was callous or mean to the prisoners, he punished them. To paraphrase, he told his questioners "I was there to kill Jews, not torture them." We feel nothing when we step on ants; in his mind it was the same thing with his prisoners. There was nothing evil about him; he went home to his family each night and lived a normal life. He was a mass murderer and a war criminal, not a monster.

Quote:

Lets all agree not to have any more


Agreed.
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The concept of evil is very complex when you look into it, at least for me. If someone believes what they are doing is right are they Evil or are their actions Evil? Of course that means nothing to the victims. My simple take is that those who promote and encourage evil through their own actions or words are often worse than those that carry it out (Stalin and Hitler)

People do need someone to blame when they see evil acts, sometimes that's not as simple as it appears.
 
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Michael Dorosh
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Halfinger wrote:
The concept of evil is very complex when you look into it, at least for me. If someone believes what they are doing is right are they Evil or are their actions Evil? Of course that means nothing to the victims. My simple take is that those who promote and encourage evil through their own actions or words are often worse than those that carry it out (Stalin and Hitler)

People do need someone to blame when they see evil acts, sometimes that's not as simple as it appears.


Replace the word "evil" with the word "criminal" in your post and you are closer to it. "Evil" is an emotional reaction in an attempt to explain crimes that are sweeping and terrible, and also a way to distance them from ourselves - if we can demonize the criminals, we fool ourselves into thinking these crimes are not our fault, or that they can't ever happen again. If we tell ourselves the Nazis weren't rational, thinking human beings, but instead make up this idea that they were "evil" people, then it is easier to dismiss what they did as an aberration and not worry about a repeat occurrence, or perhaps even remove any lingering blame for it from ourselves.

There was a story in Latvia of a fellow who came out to beat Jews to death in a small town square and when he was finished he mounted the piles of corpses and played the Latvian national anthem on a violin to the cheers of the assembled crowd. The Holocaust was disguised in many cases as "partisan hunting" and there are thousands of photos of grinning German soldiers posing with corpses strung up from trees, civilians of all ages, very often young children and/or females. If the Germans were such grudging victims of what was going on, as Brian suggests in his posts, why were they posing so happily for these kind of pictures? No, these were "ordinary Germans" who were enthusiastically pursuing a war of genocide. It was a mindset completely alien to us; we can't judge them by our own standards. They had decades - it existed long before Hitler - of anti-Semetic propaganda that intensified after 1933.

I'm not sanctioning it in the least but Brian has posted a couple of times in different threads about the conventional image of the German soldier, perpetuated by the post-1945 apologist "I was just a soldier" auto-biographies and humanist film portrayals which tell us that the Germans were sharply divided between Nazis and non-Nazis. It's a lie. Millions of German soldiers aggressively pursued a racial policy in eastern Europe aimed at eradicating entire categories of people, and those at the sharp end did so willingly.

As much as we would like to believe otherwise, this was not the result of a handful of horrible, otherworldly creatures driving the agenda, it was a systematic slaughter orchestrated by thousands, perhaps millions, of ordinary criminals who wanted to do it, simply because they equated a category of people with insects. To their mind, they were not committing crimes. It's banal, not evil. If someone came up to you after swatting a fly and told you that they were arresting you, that you should be ashamed of yourself and that you were an evil person, you would likely have no idea what the fuss was about. The Germans became so out of sync with our own norms that some actually got to the point of thinking that way about what they were doing.

As you say, though, it is complex. Very possibly many did realize what they were doing was wrong, but they did it anyway, thinking it was a worthwhile personal sacrifice to make in order to create what they thought was a better world for themselves. Again, I'm not justifying the disgusting atrocities we're discussing, but crimes, and on this scale, don't simply happen in a vacuum.
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It's a pity that there's no source given on your website for the story. According to someone I knew who worked at the Crimes of the Wehrmacht exhibition in Hamburg, there were no recorded cases of Wehrmacht soldiers who were executed for refusing to shoot civilians: his point was that the dangers of refusing to follow orders in this case may have been less than is often assumed, that Wehrmacht soldiers were not faced with the choice of killing or being executed, and indeed, perhaps, they were often somewhat more willing to conduct these crimes than apologists for the Wehrmacht would care to admit. (I realise in this case, the soldier is not being executed by court-martial, so its veracity wouldn't affect this claim).
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Chanfan wrote:
A little internet searching shows this to be from a 1950 film. Not listed in IMDB that I can find, it's supposedly a 13min film designed to teach folks about moral dilemmas.

I did some searching, too. All I found is that apparently a film exists on the subject, but I couldn't attest whether the photo is a still from the film or real - or if the whole story is real, for that matter.

Edit: Apparently it is true: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87493&...
(check post #66)

A monument exists at the place this happened, and the story is far more known in Serbia/Yugoslavia than in Germany (or the rest of the world) for apparent reasons ...
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Salo sila wrote:
It's a pity that there's no source given on your website for the story. According to someone I knew who worked at the Crimes of the Wehrmacht exhibition in Hamburg, there were no recorded cases of Wehrmacht soldiers who were executed for refusing to shoot civilians: his point was that the dangers of refusing to follow orders in this case may have been less than is often assumed, that Wehrmacht soldiers were not faced with the choice of killing or being executed, and indeed, perhaps, they were often somewhat more willing to conduct these crimes than apologists for the Wehrmacht would care to admit. (I realise in this case, the soldier is not being executed by court-martial, so its veracity wouldn't affect this claim).


Yes. I don't know how much more severe discipline was in the Wehrmacht than in the reserve police battalions (it may be an important distinction to draw), but Browning discusses repurcussions for refusals to participate in mass killings in some detail. He found strong evidence of German policemen who refused to participate, and were given a simple reassignment to other duties. No court martial, no threats, just an understanding that it was unpleasant work and not for everyone. Perhaps that is a very strong establishment of knowledge of guilt, however, since soldiers in the firing line were treated much differently. The Germans executed thousands of soldiers for desertion and abandonment of their duty, especially in the last months of the war - when flying courts-martial were established, special police units were created, and so so many executions and drum-head services were conducted that records were never kept and we have no idea what the final tally was.

What is important to remember, however, is that even in Nazi Germany, there was law and order until the final months of the war. The Germans in fact had an outstanding sense of order. Hitler did not, as incredible as it may seem, have total power. Look at the euthanasia program (T-4). He had to stop it under pressure from the Catholic Church and public outcry. He was not free to do just whatever he wanted. Soldiers in the Wehrmacht had the right to redress of grievances, to legal representation, and many of the rights and privileges western soldiers enjoy even today. While we are all familiar with the court proceedings by Frieseler of the 1944 conspirators, or the rapid-fire shootings of von Stauffenberg, these were rare exceptions and made famous by their historic significance.
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Simon Mueller wrote:
Apparently it is true: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87493&...
(check post #66)

A monument exists at the place this happened, and the story is far more known in Serbia/Yugoslavia than in Germany (or the rest of the world) for apparent reasons ...


Interesting; so this event happend in Yugoslavia and not the Soviet Union.

It seems unusual that a German soldier would be tried and convicted on the spot, and then shot by members of his own unit; almost seems like Serbian folklore. Not saying it isn't possible but the standard routine would be to arrest him, not just shoot him. Were there really standing orders that early in the war to just execute anyone for not obeying an order? If I was an NCO or an officer that low down (i.e. in charge of a small execution squad, so think sergeant or lieutenant), that's a huge call to be making all on my own. Not saying it could never happen, but that NCO or officer making the call would then have to answer for the call himself.

If anyone doubts the ability of Yugoslavians to invent propaganda, well, they have recently become quite good at it too. Check out the talk page at Operation Medak Pocket, for example, on Wikipedia for their discussion of Serbian and Croatian claims about UN and Canadian intervention there during their civil war...

EDIT - actually, however, the Germans did have something called, I believe, dienstliche befehl - "Official Order"; I've always associated it with sentries but I think it could be applied in any situation. Basically if a superior or someone in authority told you to do something, he could be vested with the power to issue an Official Order, which gave him the right to exercise lethal force should you not comply. i.e. you walk up to a secure facility, refuse to obey the Official Order of the sentry on duty to halt and show your identity papers, after which he shoots you. An NCO in charge of an execution squad who felt his authority was being compromised by a rebellious member could probably feel he had no choice but to shoot such a rebel in order to accomplish his mission, and he had the requisite legal mechanism in place to back him up.
 
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
It seems unusual that a German soldier would be tried and convicted on the spot, and then shot by members of his own unit; almost seems like Serbian folklore. Not saying it isn't possible but the standard routine would be to arrest him, not just shoot him. Were there really standing orders that early in the war to just execute anyone for not obeying an order? If I was an NCO or an officer that low down (i.e. in charge of a small execution squad, so think sergeant or lieutenant), that's a huge call to be making all on my own. Not saying it could never happen, but that NCO or officer making the call would then have to answer for the call himself.

As I understand it, the squad was ordered to execute civilians (or partisans, but the people lined up look like boys). Schultz, as the story goes, then gave the others the choice of either killing him with the civilians or not killing the civilians. The responsibility fell in the hands of the NCO, and NCOs were allowed to (even intended to) make such decisions - similarly the infamous commissar order wasn't obeyed by every officer. Apparently Schultz already had some quarrels with officers over unethical orders, so the responsible people probably just didn't care.

Executions of ordinary soldiers by their superiors occurred more frequently in the closing years of WWII, when soldiers realized they were fighting for a lost cause. These were rarely reported or arraigned for (after the war), often even considered as justified punishment for cowardice.
 
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I very clearly remember hearing about this story quite a lot when I was a kid (early 80s) in former Yugoslavia. Soldier in the stories I heard has the very same name - Schultz. There is even another story that I recollect, albeit more vague, about a women in a small town in western Serbia (where the incident allegedly took place) who raised a monument to pvt. Schultz in the front yard of her house, only to have a lot of trouble from the government who didn't like that idea. I remember my father telling me about how absurd they are, harrasing her about it.

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Now, a quick bit of googling reveals this:

http://www.mojheroj.com/heroj.aspx?h=91

It's in Serbian, but it basically tells the same story, albeit with more detail - according to the page, incident happened on July 20th, 1941. in a village near the town of Smederevska Palanka, in Serbia. Pvt. Schultz was a member of 714th infantry division (who, at least according to Wikipedia, actually was in former Yugoslavia in '41).
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Michael Dorosh wrote:

If anyone doubts the ability of Yugoslavians to invent propaganda, well, they have recently become quite good at it too.


Now, it is quite possible that this is just an urban legend that now somehow reached the Net, but I think that I know a thing or two about totalitarian (communist/nationalist) mythmaking in former Yugoslavia, and to me this story just sounds a tad strange to be a complete fabrication.

To put it simply - communists/nationalists in these here parts are not in a habit of humanizing the enemy, there's nothing to gain from that. If one of them is human, then we can't hate them as a whole, and where would that leads us...

To me it sounds that something of that nature did happen there - but the story that reached us now might not have a lot of resemblance to actual events.


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Simon Mueller wrote:
Chanfan wrote:
A little internet searching shows this to be from a 1950 film. Not listed in IMDB that I can find, it's supposedly a 13min film designed to teach folks about moral dilemmas.

I did some searching, too. All I found is that apparently a film exists on the subject, but I couldn't attest whether the photo is a still from the film or real - or if the whole story is real, for that matter.

Edit: Apparently it is true: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87493&...
(check post #66)

A monument exists at the place this happened, and the story is far more known in Serbia/Yugoslavia than in Germany (or the rest of the world) for apparent reasons ...


Ah ha. That could very well be the case. The clips I saw were clearly from a movie (color, movie like cuts to the different soldiers, photographer following 'em around with his camera and a very un-military haircut). However, I did think it odd that they showed the B&W photos the guy was taking, so I would assume it's a documentary "re-enacting" the events (or possibly a creative interpretation of 'em), around the actual photos.
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An interesting story regardless of the veracity of it.

Interesting discussion too. I am struck by a few points. First, there are some fairly universal "right" and "wrong" ways of interacting with others. Specifics certainly vary, but even within the lower animals, we find some forms of "social norms."

In fact, the so-called mental illnesses are expressed cross culturally. Schizophrenia is schizophrenia. In some instances, the way the culture reacts to the abnormality can be beneficial or harmful, but I disagree that there are no conventions across cultures (total moral relativism).

The idea of "evil" being a hollywood invention is not accurate, in my opinion. In fact, if evil is seen as a violation of some sort of "moral law," we see it since the start of recorded history. Significant deviance on the part of an individual from all of these conventions and from all cultural trappings is usually a sign something is wrong. For example, we know there are sociopaths who have much less objectively measured arousal (skin conductance, etc.) when they see "shocking" things.

When someone does something that goes against the grain of any moral convention something could be wrong with the hardware. More commonly though, behavior changes in response to group variables (a social psychologist would know more than me!) as demonstrated in the prisoner studies and in Milner's "shocking" (ha ha) obedience studies. It is a rare individual that can resist as the protagonist in the story did, very rare. Perhaps the most unsettling thing is that human behavior suggests we are ALL capable of monstrous behavior in the right circumstances if we are not vigilant. And I say that with my a Bible on my nightstand.

If this story is not true, it undoubtedly did take place in some form during WWII somewhere. Sadly, it would have been the exception and not the rule....



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