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Race for the Galaxy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Discard card for VP question. rss

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MFK
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Hello, all!

I have a question regarding a card, but unfortunately don't have my deck with me (I'm at work). We came across a card last night that had a power (don't remember the phase) that said something like "discard card for VP." It didn't say to discard a good, though. Can that card be used during that phase for the rest of the game? Are the cards discarded from your tableau, or your hand? Can you discard multiple cards at once?

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry for being so vague.
 
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Rob Neuhaus
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It is discard from hand. It does not consume goods, nor are cards discarded from your tableau. As of the second expansion, there are four cards that do this

Deficit Spending, base game, 2 cost dev, discard up to twice
Merchant World, base game, 4 cost world, discard up to twice
Galactic Bazaar, gathering storm, 3 cost novelty windfall, only discard once
Galactic Bankers, rebel vs imperium, 6 cost dev, discard up to twice

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Dretzle Omega
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For the discard powers, the ones where you discard from your hand have a an icon with a hand around the card (you can see the thumb on the left and the fingers around the card on the right). From memory, the arrow can kind of cover up the fingers, but you'll still see a grey bar (hand and thumb) on the left.

The card that discards from the table has no hand around in and explanation text says "Discard this card from the tableau..."
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John Earles
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Hi metalfacekevin,

As, I am sure, you have now noticed the Game Forums are cached and only update every few minutes. That is why you were not immediately seeing your question appear. Be patient... I've yet to have a post disappear (unless the site goes down laugh ).

Welcome to BGG!
 
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As mentioned, these cards below are all the ones that have the same/similar effect as you're describing. If you decide to use these powers which happen to be optional, the discard comes from cards from your hand, NOT goods on your tableau (which also happen to be represented by cards as well). As a reminder, remember that you do NOT get to double these particular VPs even if you choose Consume x2.


From base game
Deficit Spending and Merchant World
.....


From exp #1 and From exp #2 respectively...
Galactic Bazaar and Galactic Bankers
.....

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Dretzle Omega
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While we're on it, I was reading ahead to the 1st expansion's rules (I only have the base so far). In the first expansion I saw listed a Discard for Temporary Military power where you could discard up to 2 cards for +1 military each. In the rules here, however, it says as an optional power, this power need not be used fully. i.e. you can discard only one card for +1 military.

I understand these discard cards for VPs during consume phase is also optional (I can choose not to discard the cards for VPs) but I couldn't find anything in the base rules that says once I choose to use that power I didn't have to use it fully. So we've been playing under the normal "up to" rules that once you choose that power, you have to go as far as you can.

So, was I doing it wrong, and the optional discard "up to" for VP cards don't need to be used fully? Or is that rule I saw for the Discard for Temporary Military only apply to that power?
 
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Rob Neuhaus
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You are allowed to discard 0, 1, or 2 cards from your hand. I think the words "may" and "up to" make this interpretation clear.

Edit: goods -> cards, as suggested below.
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Kevin Shillinglaw
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I agree. "May" indicates that you choose whether to fully use this power or not. And I think Rob (who posted just above me) meant "0, 1 or 2 cards" not "goods".
 
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Dretzle Omega
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Deathstroke wrote:
I agree. "May" indicates that you choose whether to fully use this power or not. And I think Rob (who posted just above me) meant "0, 1 or 2 cards" not "goods".


Yes, but the rules for the first box state about consumption of goods that when you choose to consume, say with Mining Conglomerate, you consume "up to" 2 brown goods for one VP each, but when you choose that you have to go as far as possible. That is, you can consume only one good if you have only one brown good left, but if you choose to use the consume power and you have two brown goods you have to consume both of them.

Deficit Spending uses the same terminology of "up to", but with the only variance of "may", which I took as you may choose to use the power or not (as opposed to goods where you have to consume if you can), but I didn't think that changed that "up to" meant I had to go all the way if I can.

Is there an actual rule for this? Or is this just how it's been played/clarified in the later rules?

Thanks for your help, by the way! These forums seem to be full of extremely helpful people!
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Dretzle Omega wrote:
Deathstroke wrote:
I agree. "May" indicates that you choose whether to fully use this power or not. And I think Rob (who posted just above me) meant "0, 1 or 2 cards" not "goods".


Yes, but the rules for the first box state about consumption of goods that when you choose to consume, say with Mining Conglomerate, you consume "up to" 2 brown goods for one VP each, but when you choose that you have to go as far as possible. That is, you can consume only one good if you have only one brown good left, but if you choose to use the consume power and you have two brown goods you have to consume both of them.

Deficit Spending uses the same terminology of "up to", but with the only variance of "may", which I took as you may choose to use the power or not (as opposed to goods where you have to consume if you can), but I didn't think that changed that "up to" meant I had to go all the way if I can.

Is there an actual rule for this? Or is this just how it's been played/clarified in the later rules?

Thanks for your help, by the way! These forums seem to be full of extremely helpful people!


I Can't find anything in the rules that explicitly state that with a power like Deficit Spending, you may discard 0, 1, or 2 cards for 1 VP apiece. Rest assured that many computer implementations and groups I've played with agree that b/c Deficit Spending says "may", then once invoked, you are free to discard just 1 card from hand to get 1 VP if you would've been able to discard 2.
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Dretzle Omega
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ackmondual wrote:
I Can't find anything in the rules that explicitly state that with a power like Deficit Spending, you may discard 0, 1, or 2 cards for 1 VP apiece. Rest assured that many computer implementations and groups I've played with agree that b/c Deficit Spending says "may", then once invoked, you are free to discard just 1 card from hand to get 1 VP if you would've been able to discard 2.


Thanks
 
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John Earles
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How about this, from the Designer himself:

Tom Lehmann wrote:
Deficit Spending is optional (as, indeed, is any power that uses the word "may"). Typically, optional powers involve giving up cards from your tableau or hand, for example: Colony Ship or New Military Tactics.

The only time you are required to use an optional power is to fulfil an indicated tableau placement. For example, if you indicate that you are settling a Military 3 world, such as Rebel Underground, by placing it face down and flipping it up when everyone is ready and have no Military except for the optional New Military Tactics, then you must use the New Military Tactics to place this world; you don't have the option, after having seen what everyone else did, to decide to not settle this world.

This is in the rules at the end of the Powers section.

Since Deficit Spending is optional, you are not required to spend two cards when you use it; you may choose to discard only one. Note that this is different from the rule about using all of a mandatory Consume power that consumes "up to" some number of goods, if possible, once that consume power is invoked. Optional trumps "up to" in this case.

Does this make sense?
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MFK
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jearles wrote:
Hi metalfacekevin,

As, I am sure, you have now noticed the Game Forums are cached and only update every few minutes. That is why you were not immediately seeing your question appear. Be patient... I've yet to have a post disappear (unless the site goes down laugh ).

Welcome to BGG!


Sorry about that! I didn't mean to post 2 threads...I was posting from my mobile phone.

Thanks for the clarification, everyone! I missed the little finger on the card when I saw it yesterday. :/
 
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Dretzle Omega
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metalfacekevin wrote:
jearles wrote:
Hi metalfacekevin,

As, I am sure, you have now noticed the Game Forums are cached and only update every few minutes. That is why you were not immediately seeing your question appear. Be patient... I've yet to have a post disappear (unless the site goes down laugh ).

Welcome to BGG!


Sorry about that! I didn't mean to post 2 threads...I was posting from my mobile phone.

Thanks for the clarification, everyone! I missed the little finger on the card when I saw it yesterday. :/


Heh, and you posted about 6 to 8 threads that I saw, but I guess that's okay.
 
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Daniel Cristofani
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Incidentally, the rulebook section on the "Discard Cards" icon, in the lower-right corner of page 10, answered these questions:

"The player may discard up to 2 cards from his hard to gain 1 VP apiece.

These VPs are not doubled by the Consume: 2x bonus.

This power is optional, so it need not be used fully."
 
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Tom Lehmann
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the majestic moose wrote:
Incidentally, the rulebook section on the "Discard Cards" icon, in the lower-right corner of page 10, answered these questions:

"The player may discard up to 2 cards from his hard to gain 1 VP apiece.

These VPs are not doubled by the Consume: 2x bonus.

This power is optional, so it need not be used fully."


The last sentence was added to the second edition of the base rules.
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Jon Connor
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1. I want to make sure I have this down. I interpretted the "this power is optional" on Galactic Bazaar to mean that unlike normal consumes, you did not have to discard even 1 card if you did not wish too.

2. If you have a consume 1 or 2 goods world, must you consume 2 if you can?

- Although this would not have changed any of the games I have played so far, as we have always consumed as much as possible every consume phase.

BTW Tom, now I've played a few games of Race and Roll (and own Race + 2expansions). I dig your games! I will pick up Roll+exp and the other 2 exp for Race when I get the chance.
 
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Dan Blum
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1. Correct.

2. You must consume 2 if you can at the time you resolve it.
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Tom Lehmann
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tool wrote:
You must consume 2 [goods in a multiple goods consuming power] if you can at the time you resolve it.

Correct.

EDIT: my first reply here misunderstood the question. Carry on.
 
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Dan Blum
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
tool wrote:
You must consume 2 if you can at the time you resolve it.

Incorrect. Optional powers need not be used fully.

In all but the very first RFTG printing (the one with combined English/German rules), this is clarified on page 10 under the "Discards Card, not Goods" power (i.e. for Deficit Spending and similar powers).


Unless I misunderstood the question, it was asking about goods consumption powers, not card discarding powers (unlike the first question).
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Tom Lehmann
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tool wrote:
Tom Lehmann wrote:
tool wrote:
You must consume 2 if you can at the time you resolve it.

Incorrect. Optional powers need not be used fully.

Unless I misunderstood the question, it was asking about goods consumption powers, not card discarding powers (unlike the first question).

Whoops -- my fault. I misread the second question as being related to the first one and, for some reason, thought "cards" even though the poster clearly typed "goods". I'll go correct my correction (sigh).
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