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Subject: Games Workshop and BoardGameGeek rss

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Eric Franklin
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Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
Gamethyme wrote:
Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
I was never one for the whole 'fight the power/man' spiel line of thinking. But damn would it have hurt BGG as a whole to fight some parts of the C&D letter?


Of course not! After all, lawyers are free.


So your saying and speaking for the administration of BGG that they would rather cow to a C&D letter, than fight it? That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside about my donations.


Your donations? What ... $12 in February and $15 in December of last year? Seriously? $27? GeekMail me your PayPal address, and I'll send you $27 on my next payday (the 15th). That way, you are relieved of the burden of worrying about what Aldie and company do with your money.


DING DING DING and the biggest EDIT TO REMOVE PROFANITY AND NAME-CALLING of the year award goes to: ERIC FRANKLIN!!! Yes, folks this is the tri-fecta you'll only see this kind of person on every other internet forum! Because the little guys small donations dont mean shit to the people that donate alot! I dont deserve a voice because I havent given as much money as some people. I should be pushed into a corner and told to be quiet! I'll now turn the mic to you and let you serenade us with your bull shit.

And I will call you on your public offer. You will have my paypal addy within the next minute. We'll see if you live up to your word.


1) I don't donate a lot. $10 per month. If I could afford more, I'd send more. There are other users who donate significantly more than I.
2) I didn't mean to imply that your voice didn't matter. I apologize if that's how it came across. Your voice is as valid a part of the community as mine.
3) I don't presume to tell Aldie how to spend his money. I blindly send the money to BGG and assume that those with the money are spending it to keep BGG going. It bothers me when anyone donates the money to BGG and then wants to dictate policy to them.
4) The money is already on its way. I would appreciate it if you publicly acknowledged its arrival once it reaches you.

Eric
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doctor beans wrote:
joedogboy wrote:

Let's just make sure that this is clear to everyone, since they will probably be a lot less upset that BGG decided to remove files, because they are predisposed to like BGG.


I'm trying to envision a situation in which the above is not crystal clear to someone after he reads the post you quoted.

I still think most folks place the blame squarely on GW where it belongs.


Obviously it is not crystal clear to you.

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BTW now that we are mailing each-other monies please know I accept cash or cheque.
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Del_Esau wrote:
BTW now that we are mailing each-other monies please know I accept cash or cheque.


Where does the line form?
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Will
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joedogboy wrote:
Yargo wrote:


Also, volunteers is a BAD idea for something like this. Then you are putting the future of BGG at stake on a random volunteer who might even want to hurt BGG for some reason. That volunteer would have to be an IP lawyer to ensure that his decisions didn't violate GW's IP. And even then, thats no gauruntee. GW could decide to sue them anyway even if GW was in the wrong.


Many forums - even those run by businesses - have volunteers moderating the boards.

Just because you are not on salary, it doesn't mean that you are incompetent or that you are not accountable.

It all comes down to training and trust.

Volunteers work in hospitals, schools, and public safety departments. In emergencies and natural disasters, it is frequently volunteers who provide assistance to the victims.

It seems likely that GW can only sue over specific items that they inform BGG about, and that BGG then refuses to fix. The broad ranging thing seems more of a courtesy, and is designed to keep GW from having to send another letter in the future about some more specific items.


1) And those volunteers sometimes get sued if random courts think they were at fault for some random reason, or whatever. People have lost thier livlihoods over trying to help someone. Its SAD when its sometimes the better decision for the volunteer is not to.
Kinda like how in the Incredibles movie, they get sued from the guy with a neck injury from saving his life.

2) Actually thats probably not the case that they "can only", check my reply on the previous page
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4271787#4271787
And as well, even if that WERE the case, it doesn't stop GW from sueing. Only (presumably) from winning. The fact is that they can sue for any reason and it takes piles of money to defend, regardless of the justice of the claim.

IANAL and this is opinions.
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Archilochus wrote:
I for one, am glad that THAT is over.

Good Gaming~! Mick



Oh, I don't think it's over (he says 4 pages of comments later). It's the kind of "over" that George Bush proclaimed on the deck of that aircraft carrier....

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Now see here Tiger? When you open up, everyone loves you. Go on, you can do it.
 
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Eric Franklin
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Luftwaffe Flak wrote:

And in regard to your #2, you really think calling me on how LITTLE Ive donated could be construed any differently than a 'holier than thou' tone? The exact way you have it worded "Your donations? Seriously? What..." followed by my amounts? Is all done in a 'I look down on you' manner.

And yes, while Eric maybe the trifecta, I can vouch that he is indeed a man of his word and have received the funds he promised.


My wife called me on what I had to say here. She's a lot sharper than I give her credit for.

I don't know if you'll read my e-mail, Mr. Nikitas, but I just sent you an apology. Here it is again in public:

Quote:
I apologize for mentioning the amount of donation in the forum

My wife asked me point-blank what I meant to say - and what I meant to say had to do with donors dictating where the money is spent. Saying that did not require calling out the amount of money donated - or singling you out specifically. I apologize for both of these.

I lost my temper, and, while the anger was not aimed at you, I still wound up targeting you. For this, I also apologize.


You are free to think of me as you will. And I admit that in this case, I had it coming.

Now I'm going to go somewhere that is not the internet until I'm not angry anymore. Because I should not be trusted on the internet when I am angry.

Eric
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Yargo wrote:

1) And those volunteers sometimes get sued if random courts think they were at fault for some random reason, or whatever. People have lost thier livlihoods over trying to help someone. Its SAD when its sometimes the better decision for the volunteer is not to.
Kinda like how in the Incredibles movie, they get sued from the guy with a neck injury from saving his life.

2) Actually thats probably not the case that they "can only", check my reply on the previous page
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4271787#4271787
And as well, even if that WERE the case, it doesn't stop GW from sueing. Only (presumably) from winning. The fact is that they can sue for any reason and it takes piles of money to defend, regardless of the justice of the claim.

IANAL and this is opinions.


1) I know about the level of personal responsibility that volunteers assume. This is why I stressed the importance of training your staff (employees and volunteers).

2. While it is true that anyone can sue anyone else for anything, it is a waste of time and money for an organization to begin a lawsuit against another organization when the second organization has demonstrated that it is willing to cooperate with the first and comply with the laws. A good lawyer (one who wants to remain employed by their client) will advise their client not to waste their time and money by filing the suit unless they have to. Remember this: if GW takes someone to court, they risk a precedent being set that restricts their IP rights to a tiny portion of what they claim. Every lawsuit would be a roll of the dice for them, and could possibly cause them to lose far more than they lose to some pirate downloads.

What Aldie's post says is that BGG received a C&D letter regarding four specific items, which BGG complied with. No problems so far, and I doubt if ten people would even have noticed it.
Then there was a further communication, at which point GW asked BGG to deal with other potential issues, which BGG agreed to do. BGG then removed a larger number of files, people noticed, and all hell broke loose.
We don't know if this second request was part of the first letter - although Aldie's wording makes it seem like it wasn't. We don't know if the second request came in the form of a C&D letter, or something less formal, perhaps even as an email or part of a conversation. If it was not part of the original C&D letter, then the "timeclock", if any, would be reset.

IA also NAL, but I do know some
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Gamethyme wrote:

Now I'm going to go somewhere that is not the internet until I'm not angry anymore. Because I should not be trusted on the internet when I am angry.

Eric


Actually I call this Rule 4. I created a series of rules to follow after I was banned from RPG.Net so I could change my argumentative behaviour that was leading me to being banned by game forums:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/3127940#3127940

YMMV. Worked for me for five years and going strong.
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Thanks Aldie and BGG Team for your hard work. I for one hope Games Workshop gets their bollocks knocked into their pieholes and enjoy chewing on it, all things considered. However, clearer heads than ours have prevailed again. I look forward to seeing this resolved not only here, but in the gaming community at large. Considering how many game sites, retail, wholesale, and publisher, use BGG as a reference for gamers, this ignorance on the part of Games Workshop about the benefits of this site are abundantly apparent.

Keep up the good work, as always.

Cheers,

Jacovis
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Scott McClenaghan
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joedogboy wrote:
doctor beans wrote:
joedogboy wrote:

Let's just make sure that this is clear to everyone, since they will probably be a lot less upset that BGG decided to remove files, because they are predisposed to like BGG.


I'm trying to envision a situation in which the above is not crystal clear to someone after he reads the post you quoted.

I still think most folks place the blame squarely on GW where it belongs.


Obviously it is not crystal clear to you.



See, now that sort of smug nonsense isn't necessary and undermines your credibility a little.

It is "obviously" clear to me that BGG was asked to remove four files and decided to remove many more. You imply that this point is enough to absolve GW of wrongdoing. I think that's where you're losing people since it can be argued that BGG's actions were not only reasonable but possibly anticipated.

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Will other independent publishers please see this posting regarding granting BGG the right to support your fans:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/468607

Obviously their are many "established" publishers here that can't respond due to their legal obligations but I would encourage such folk to let Aldie know you support his effort to promote you in your own manner.

I don't speak for BGG. I speak for myself to make it clear they can keep doing with my files what they already do with my files.
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Time to close this thread? Maybe, too much violence now.

About GW, maybe is also the time to delete all of its games from the db. That way you'll never have any legal problems with them. The fans can use their website to talk about their new games, and probably the 2770 owners of the new edition of Space Hulk 3rd will need to find out how to talk about the game. Probably, without BGG, that reprint would have been a total failure.
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doctor beans wrote:
joedogboy wrote:
doctor beans wrote:
joedogboy wrote:

Let's just make sure that this is clear to everyone, since they will probably be a lot less upset that BGG decided to remove files, because they are predisposed to like BGG.


I'm trying to envision a situation in which the above is not crystal clear to someone after he reads the post you quoted.

I still think most folks place the blame squarely on GW where it belongs.


Obviously it is not crystal clear to you.



See, now that sort of smug nonsense isn't necessary and undermines your credibility a little.

It is "obviously" clear to me that BGG was asked to remove four files and decided to remove many more. You imply that this point is enough to absolve GW of wrongdoing. I think that's where you're losing people since it can be argued that BGG's actions were not only reasonable but possibly anticipated.



1) You agree that GW asked BGG to remove four files.

2) You agree that these four files probably actually contained IP violations.

3) I'm guessing that you'd also agree that this is perfectly acceptable and reasonable.

4) You agree that GW told BGG that there were other files that might contain IP violations, and that they left it up to BGG to decide what other files they felt needed to be removed.

5) You agree that BGG removed a large number of files.

I add these things up and get 15) We don't need to be angry with GW for this situation, since they were behaving reasonably. Also, we should understand that BGG made a decision that seemed safest to them, and removed (temporarily at least) a bunch of files that may turn out to be okay. "Blame" and anger are not required, understanding is. Even had you added up to 12 (by thinking that it is unreasonable for any company to try to protect any IP), you wouldn't need to be angry or place blame.


You add up these things and get: 78) GW is solely to blame for all of the files that were removed, because it was all a part of their cunning plot to get so everyone a bunch of files removed from BGG and make people angry with them, and we should all continue ranting and raving about how "evil" GW is, writing rude letters, and lowering the rating for Space Hulk.

I'm just not seeing any "wrongdoing" here on GW's part.

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Aldie did what he had to do to protect BGG legally and I think a lot of readers here can see that. When faced with a set of guidelines that would take a considerable amount of time to absorb, they did the prudent thing and erred on the side of caution.

What I think a lot of posters are missing is that GW is in a very similar position. If your attorney tells you that you have to protect your IP or risk a shareholder lawsuit, you do what you have to do and you probably err on the side of caution. Remember that GW was not in a position to go around Aldie and Derk and communicate with BGG users directly. We're BGG customers in this case, not GW ones, and the respectful thing to do was send their letter to BGG and leave the communication with BGGers to Aldie.

If a year from now fan-creators have had their opportunity to resubmit, without the logos, with copyrighted text removed, and proper credit given, will we have really lost anything?
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greyareabeyond wrote:

If a year from now fan-creators have had their opportunity to resubmit, without the logos, with copyrighted text removed, and proper credit given, will we have really lost anything?


It really depends on whether the "1" ratings that resulted from the backlash are removed, or remain.
 
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This all makes me very sad.

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wargamer55 wrote:
ekted wrote:
There are prefectly legal files that users might want to upload for GW games. Blocking those only hurts other users. I hope you lift the overall block at some point.


On the other hand, I don't see why BGG should go out of its way to support GW products. If GW doesn't want want files added then fine. I don't think BGG admins should have to police submissions for IP compliance.

Better to let IP owners complain if they beleive their rights are being infringed and then let content submitters appeal. This will cut down on the workload a lot, because the vast majority of game makers seem to believe that most of the content actually increases sales or is harmless and they let it go.


I agree! Why not just remove the games completely and not allow them to appear on BGG at all? That should satisfy their IP rules.
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turtleback wrote:

This all makes me very sad.



This all makes me long for the "good ol' days" when I went to the store and bought a game 'cuz it looked cool, took it home and had fun playing it without anyone telling me all the reasons I shouldn't. Simple times....
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SusanRoz wrote:
turtleback wrote:

This all makes me very sad.



This all makes me long for the "good ol' days" when I went to the store and bought a game 'cuz it looked cool, took it home and had fun playing it without anyone telling me all the reasons I shouldn't. Simple times....

You know.... you can still do that The only thing standing in the way of you doing that is you
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Yargo wrote:

You know.... you can still do that The only thing standing in the way of you doing that is you


Are you kidding?!?! And do without all my players' aides!!?
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I've read through a few threads on this GW issue now... well scanned through them anyway. I was wondering what the impetus behind the recent C&D crackdowns were. Then I remembered an announcement for a new movie:

http://ultramarinesthemovie.com/

I don't think I'll be seeing it.
Any other thoughts on the underlying reasons? Apart from the obvious protection of their IP, I mean.
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Why would GW be looking at this issue right now?

Some possibilities:

* 40k movie is rumored to be in the works.
* New Bloodbowl computer game release.
* Recent licensing/sale of some old games to FFG, possible future licensing/sale of more old games to FFG (or other publishers).
* Possible other computer game contracts.
* Recent successful re-release of SH may lead to re-releases of other old games.

Others have gleefully speculated that they want to sell the company, or spin off parts of the company and sell them.
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Dennis Gadgaard
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I know I'm coming in late in the thread, but I'd still like to thank Aldie et al. for the fantastic job they're doing with BGG.
Responding in a way that makes it impossible for GW to challenge BGGs right to exist is fine by me, since I'm a big fan of BGG.

I know some files were lost, that GW most likely had no right challenging, but I don't mourn the loss.
I mourn the death of a few good games though, because that is what GW's actions did for me.

Every game I owned covered by GW's IP is now either sold, given away or thrown in the trash. I do not intend to buy, review or play any of them again, but no big loss... In the games market today there are very good alternatives to any game GW has to offer. This step would have been much harder for me to take 8 - 10 years ago.
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