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Subject: Did I miss something?! rss

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Ville Vuorio
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I don't own Space Hulk but I've heard much. Was never really interested in it for it was only for two players. When it came out it started its crusade straight towards the top.

What was the record rank it achieved? 4? 5?

*Goes away for some months*

*Comes back*

Board Game Rank: 170 wow

What happened?!

Do people really hate this game so much that it has deserved its 1 ratings? (as I type this there are 291 of them)
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Gunther Schmidl
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You missed the rest of the recent posts in this forum.
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Matt Tonks
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Apparently Games Workshop issued a Cease & Desist order/letter to BGG & has been withdrawn fan-made content, etc for their games. This has result in people drastically dropping their ratings...

As for the ratings; I also hadn't seen that SH dropped to 170 in the past few days either. That's just stupid...

I certainly don't approve of GW forcing the fan-made stuff to be withdrawn from BGG, but that doesn't make Space Hulk change from a 9 to a 1, or whatever.

Seems like a few people getting a bit too dramatic about this... shake
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John "Omega" Williams
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Right around Thanksgiving Games Workshop issues one of its periodic Cease & Desist letter campaigns. This time though the BGG was one of the targets in the batch. Now about maybbee 90% of the fan submitted files have been deleted and all GW games are apparently locked off from any more fan submissions.

Since SH catapulted GW into the limelight and all of a sudden they are more or less attacking the people who so energetically supported and defended them. Joy has turned to hate and some members are retaliating with low or no ratings, dropping or removing their once high ratings.

For some the incident or loss of their work has damaged their enjoyment of the game. For others its a form of passive protest against GW's antics.
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Daniel
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The 1 ratings were made by angered fans (not necessarily also owners) because of GW's latest Cease & Desist actions, pulling every fan-made content from the net (and BGG as well) through lawyers!

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Michael Melbourne
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raivaaja wrote:

Do people really hate this game so much that it has deserved its 1 ratings? (as I type this there are 291 of them)


People don't hate the game so much as they hate Games Workshop now, and are taking it out on the game. There should be a Rate a Publisher list to make this more reasonable.

I think it's sad that this great game is getting drug through the mud for something GW did. It like saying the Camry is the worst car around because Toyota took away CD players from their vehicles. Make no sense.

I love Space Hulk, will always love Space Hulk, but I have no love for GW anymore. Rather than burn my game up to get back at them, I simply just won't buy their products anymore. It's not their reputation I am hurting, it's their pocketbook.
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goalie4hire wrote:
raivaaja wrote:

Do people really hate this game so much that it has deserved its 1 ratings? (as I type this there are 291 of them)


People don't hate the game so much as they hate Games Workshop now, and are taking it out on the game. There should be a Rate a Publisher list to make this more reasonable.

I think it's sad that this great game is getting drug through the mud for something GW did. It like saying the Camry is the worst car around because Toyota took away CD players from their vehicles. Make no sense.

I love Space Hulk, will always love Space Hulk, but I have no love for GW anymore. Rather than burn my game up to get back at them, I simply just won't buy their products anymore. It's not their reputation I am hurting, it's their pocketbook.


I am in the same boat. I love Space Hulk- I own all three versions- and am happy to have them, and REALLY glad the 3rd version came out- IT IS AWESOME!

But...

...I will never buy another GamesWorkshop game in the future because of their stupid legal bullsh*t.

I am so glad I grabbed 2 copies of Space Hulk 3 before all this crap started.

I hope they put a lot of money into another project like revised Space Hulk and see just what happens.
I am quite sure it WILL NOT get the warm reception SH got.



 
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Engoduun wrote:
The 1 ratings were made by angered fans (not necessarily also owners) because of GW's latest Cease & Desist actions, pulling every fan-made content from the net (and BGG as well) through lawyers!



It is not true. If you read the official thread by BGG (You find it in the news) you see that GW forced BGG to delete four files. BGG deleted the rest themselves, but have said that they will put back those who don't violate the rights of GW.

For those who want some examples on what fan material GW let you post on the net, and in print, have a look here: http://rpg.geekdo.com/geeklist/49092
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John "Omega" Williams
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I think its the abrupt slap in the face SH/GW fans got after so much support-n-luvin that was gushing fourth thats focused so much ire.

A fair number apparently were unaware or didnt believe the stories of Games workshops past antics and so when this happened it instilled a feeling of shock that those who've been through this repeatedly are rather numb to by now.

and, well... This is a forum and forums tend to be potboilers of lust and hate such as to make any soap opera weep bitter tears of envy.

cry
 
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I think it's more a problem with the rating system. Ratings should not be based on average of all votes, but also weighted by some algorithm based on number of votes. Two equally rated games should be ranked by number of voters, with the game having more voters being higher. Even a game with a lower rating would be higher if it had significantly more votes (perfect example: Puerto Rico would be on top of Agricola. They are currently 0.01 away from each other, but PR had 6,000 more votes).

Space Hulk 3rd is listed at 2002 ratings at the time of this post. By this proposed system, it would have never been so high up anyway and this drama would have been slightly less.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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The problem here is that the BGG ratings arent a gauge of quality or value. Its a rating of how much a player currently enjoys a game and/or how often they currently play it.
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raivaaja wrote:
I don't own Space Hulk but I've heard much. Was never really interested in it for it was only for two players. When it came out it started its crusade straight towards the top.

What was the record rank it achieved? 4? 5?

*Goes away for some months*

*Comes back*

Board Game Rank: 170 wow

What happened?!

Do people really hate this game so much that it has deserved its 1 ratings? (as I type this there are 291 of them)



Dude--it took me all of last night to figure out what the hell was going on here. The short answer: BGG is a very silly place.

For a minute, I thought it was my own month long absence that caused the decline, but, I'm not as important as I thought

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Geirerik wrote:
Engoduun wrote:
The 1 ratings were made by angered fans (not necessarily also owners) because of GW's latest Cease & Desist actions, pulling every fan-made content from the net (and BGG as well) through lawyers!



It is not true. If you read the official thread by BGG (You find it in the news) you see that GW forced BGG to delete four files. BGG deleted the rest themselves, but have said that they will put back those who don't violate the rights of GW.

For those who want some examples on what fan material GW let you post on the net, and in print, have a look here: http://rpg.geekdo.com/geeklist/49092


That's incorrect.

Read aldie's thread. The responded to four requests*, then replied to GW which told them to review everything and remove anything that might also violate GW's extensive policy page.


* GW's C&D letters posted at other sites have 4 requests which are not all for specific items but are for categories of items. Look at fumbl's letter for example.
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John Clark
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bungeeboy wrote:
I think it's more a problem with the rating system. Ratings should not be based on average of all votes, but also weighted by some algorithm based on number of votes. Two equally rated games should be ranked by number of voters, with the game having more voters being higher. Even a game with a lower rating would be higher if it had significantly more votes (perfect example: Puerto Rico would be on top of Agricola. They are currently 0.01 away from each other, but PR had 6,000 more votes).


What you describe is precisely how the ratings work now and have worked forever - its called a Bayesian average.

The reason Agricola is still above Puerto Rico is because of an additional factor in the ratings which removes 'shill' ratings, which are ratings of 1 or 10 made by people who are trying to manipulate the system. For example, Agricola has a heap of ratings of 1 made by people who give Puerto Rico a 10 for no other reason than to make Puerto Rico the number one game.

Now, the existence of the shill-buster seems to be accepted knowledge, but as far as I know there is no 'official' acknowledgment of its existence and certainly no description of how it works.
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John "Omega" Williams
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So very very very true... soblue

CaptainCosmic wrote:
Omega2064 wrote:
The problem here is that the BGG ratings arent a gauge of quality or value. Its a rating of how much a player currently enjoys a game and/or how often they currently play it.

The ratings/rankings here aren't even at that level.

They're a popularity contest, nothing more. And one that is skewed by many users here deriving their self-worth from seeing "their" games near the top of the list.
 
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goalie4hire wrote:
I think it's sad that this great game is getting drug through the mud for something GW did. It like saying the Camry is the worst car around because Toyota took away CD players from their vehicles. Make no sense.


Did they really? (as you can tell, I haven't boughten a new car in a while) Why'd they do that?

-shnar
 
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maxo-texas wrote:


That's incorrect.

Read aldie's thread. The responded to four requests*, then replied to GW which told them to review everything and remove anything that might also violate GW's extensive policy page.


* GW's C&D letters posted at other sites have 4 requests which are not all for specific items but are for categories of items. Look at fumbl's letter for example.


Here is Aldie's posts:

Aldie wrote:


The contents of the cease and desist highlighted 4 specific items (which we acted upon), and after replying to GW's legal department, we were told to cover a broad range of all files on the site where it was our determination in what to remove based on their intellectual property rules (posted on their website).

And

The specific files were:

Mordheim Roster Sheet
Bretonnian Army Reference Guide
Blood Bowl 7 Rules Article
Unlicensed Translation of Blood Angels Codex

In addition they stated: "Please remove any remaining images, text and files which infringe Games Workshop's intellectual property rights."

When I first received the letter, we had about 4 days to comply based on their deadline. We removed those 4 files, and I replied via email to the legal department about complying with their demand. Matthew Monin was tasked with removing other files and manually went through and reviews over 700 files.

I apologize if you think we handled this wrong, but I believe we acted in the best possible manner for BoardGameGeek.


There is four named posts that BGG were told to remove. You are right that they also got a message to remove items that violated against the IP of GW. But as I read Aldie it is BGG's judgement that is behind the rest of the files removed.

Have a look at the link I showed earlier. Have a look at the sites this post links to. Does it looks like GW is very restrictive? Does it look like there is no room for fans to make their own material for games? How many companies have a larger community producing fan material?
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Geirerik wrote:
You are right that they also got a message to remove items that violated against the IP of GW. But as I read Aldie it is BGG's judgement that is behind the rest of the files removed.


Although I cannot know exactly how the letter was spelled out, it might very well have been something along the lines of "also remove any other files that might be infringements, according to our policy, or we will be forced to take legal actions."

And GW's legal claims they make on their site are ridiculous. But they can still bring you to court if they feel like it. So BGG played it safe; their goal wasn't to win in court but to neever go to court. According to the GW's policy, everything that contains even the names of their products is an infringement, so all files with the games' name in the title had to go.

Sure, it might be that GW just said "If you find anything else that might be an infringement, do take it down, will you? Thanks." but somehow I doubt it was voiced in that tone, considering the other cease and desist letters that GW sent to other sites.
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johnclark wrote:
bungeeboy wrote:
I think it's more a problem with the rating system. Ratings should not be based on average of all votes, but also weighted by some algorithm based on number of votes. Two equally rated games should be ranked by number of voters, with the game having more voters being higher. Even a game with a lower rating would be higher if it had significantly more votes (perfect example: Puerto Rico would be on top of Agricola. They are currently 0.01 away from each other, but PR had 6,000 more votes).


What you describe is precisely how the ratings work now and have worked forever - its called a Bayesian average.

The reason Agricola is still above Puerto Rico is because of an additional factor in the ratings which removes 'shill' ratings, which are ratings of 1 or 10 made by people who are trying to manipulate the system. For example, Agricola has a heap of ratings of 1 made by people who give Puerto Rico a 10 for no other reason than to make Puerto Rico the number one game.

Now, the existence of the shill-buster seems to be accepted knowledge, but as far as I know there is no 'official' acknowledgment of its existence and certainly no description of how it works.


Is that true? I see no evidence, but good for BGG if it is. However, I still would like to see a rating system that works closer to the way I described. But I know there are far greater issues than fixing up the ratings algorithms, so it's more a recommendation than a demand.
 
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Geirerik wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:


That's incorrect.

Read aldie's thread. The responded to four requests*, then replied to GW which told them to review everything and remove anything that might also violate GW's extensive policy page.


* GW's C&D letters posted at other sites have 4 requests which are not all for specific items but are for categories of items. Look at fumbl's letter for example.


Here is Aldie's posts:

Aldie wrote:


The contents of the cease and desist highlighted 4 specific items (which we acted upon), and after replying to GW's legal department, we were told to cover a broad range of all files on the site where it was our determination in what to remove based on their intellectual property rules (posted on their website).

And

The specific files were:

Mordheim Roster Sheet
Bretonnian Army Reference Guide
Blood Bowl 7 Rules Article
Unlicensed Translation of Blood Angels Codex

In addition they stated: "Please remove any remaining images, text and files which infringe Games Workshop's intellectual property rights."

When I first received the letter, we had about 4 days to comply based on their deadline. We removed those 4 files, and I replied via email to the legal department about complying with their demand. Matthew Monin was tasked with removing other files and manually went through and reviews over 700 files.

I apologize if you think we handled this wrong, but I believe we acted in the best possible manner for BoardGameGeek.


There is four named posts that BGG were told to remove. You are right that they also got a message to remove items that violated against the IP of GW. But as I read Aldie it is BGG's judgement that is behind the rest of the files removed.

Have a look at the link I showed earlier. Have a look at the sites this post links to. Does it looks like GW is very restrictive? Does it look like there is no room for fans to make their own material for games? How many companies have a larger community producing fan material?


I stand corrected on the 4 items. I hadn't seen that thread yet.
As for the rest, yea, GW looks pretty overboard on their IP rules page.
Heroscape has a ton of fanbased content and Hasbro seems to be happy with it.
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I guess thats because there is no Heroscape videogame, film or lunchbox.

Its a sucessful game, but only a game, unlike GWs IP, which is cross platform and therefore many many times more valuable (and worth protecting)
 
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jond wrote:
I guess thats because there is no Heroscape videogame, film or lunchbox.

Its a sucessful game, but only a game, unlike GWs IP, which is cross platform and therefore many many times more valuable (and worth protecting)


Fine, Blizzard with Diablo/Warcraft/Starcraft. A company a million times more successful which dabbles in a lot more forms of entertainment and doesn't do C&D's. They embrace their fanbase and their fanbase has paid them back multiple times. Would you still like to argue that GW's way is the only way worth practicing?
 
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goalie4hire wrote:


I think it's sad that this great game is getting drug through the mud for something GW did. It like saying the Camry is the worst car around because Toyota took away CD players from their vehicles. Make no sense.


I'm not sure this analogy works.

It's more like Toyota going after a car fan site where people post instructions for upgrading their stereo to one with a CD player with a Toyota logo printed on it even though Toyota didn't manufacture it. Then the forum users then get upset that their camry isn't upgradeable. The users then change their opinion on Toyotas and call them junk compared to other cars which are produced by companies that appreciate their customers.

The camry might be a good car otherwise, but people can still shape their overall opinions of it based on whatever factors they choose to.

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There is no evidence that GW are after the fans. Please have a look at these sites. Here you can see how it can be done without breaking the rules of GW.

http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=403.0
http://www.talismanisland.com/rules.htm
http://www.talesofbattle.com/
http://www.warseer.com/
http://www.warpstone.org/
http://greywolf.critter.net/ahq.htm

Sure some of the rules of GW are stupid like the “you cannot use the name of the product rule”, but this is easy to overcome. Just change the name!

When I was uploading pictures from the LEGO® website, I wrote them a letter to find out if it was OK. I got permission but they told me to use capital letters in LEGO® and the ®. Stupid rule? Maybe, but if it makes then happy? Why not? It doesn’t hurt to check out the companies rules or ask permission before uploading anything. I would think of it as polite. And fans can be polite to, can’t they?
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jond wrote:
I guess thats because there is no Heroscape videogame, film or lunchbox.


This implies that there IS a GW film, doesn't it? I must have missed it. What is it called?
 
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