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Subject: Why the ikky flimsy paper tiles? :( rss

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Henri Harju
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I rather suspect that the tiles are on par with 1856/1870 (if not, somebody correct me) in terms of thickness, which in general 18xx terms means rather thick..

But then again if sturdy components are what you are looking for in games, I would suggest avoiding 18xx games in particular (as Breno above already said).
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Bruce Murphy
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I find the Deep Thought Games laminated tiles very nice indeed to handle. I wish I could find comparable laminating material in pouches.

18xx games aren't about big chunky warrior princess components, you play the game for the game, and all those fancy graphics are just going to get in the way somewhere around the 4th or 5th hour. Granted, the new 1853 has the getting in the way type graphics.

B>
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Kevin Beckey
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1853 is now officially off my wishlist. Laminating 1856 felt like work.
 
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John Bohrer
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thepackrat wrote:
Granted, the new 1853 has the getting in the way type graphics.


soblue
 
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Bruce Murphy
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John Bohrer wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
Granted, the new 1853 has the getting in the way type graphics.


soblue


Suprised you aren't in the militantly schematic camp, John

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From the photos here they do look very thin, but Mayfair's 18xx tiles always are.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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I still want a copy to shout at.

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Gunther Schmidl
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thepackrat wrote:
John Bohrer wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
Granted, the new 1853 has the getting in the way type graphics.


soblue


Suprised you aren't in the militantly schematic camp, John

B>


Just wait for the 2010 Winsome set -- Princess Rails even comes with dice!
 
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Anyhoo, what's the rest of it like component-wise?
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Bruce Murphy
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gschmidl wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
John Bohrer wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
Granted, the new 1853 has the getting in the way type graphics.


soblue


Suprised you aren't in the militantly schematic camp, John

B>


Just wait for the 2010 Winsome set -- Princess Rails even comes with dice!


PACKRAT ANGRY! PACKRAT KILL!!

B>
 
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Geo
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MidKentGamerUK wrote:
The tiles are printed on 'heavy paper', not unlike the photographic paper you can buy for printing at home. The kinda dubious quality I'd expect from the amateur publishers one usually associates with train games, but from Mayfair/Look-Out, and with a nigh on £50 price tag, it's just plain shoddy... shake

It's a piss take to be honest... Gutted cry


I have a couple of 18xx games and their tiles although not chunky (with the exception of Steam over Holland), are not just 'heavy paper' either. For the price you should get thicker tiles.

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Chakroun Karim
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Bruce Murphy
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MidKentGamerUK wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
18xx games aren't about big chunky warrior princess components, you play the game for the game


If you're the kinda mug that'll happily pay premium rates for low quality 'look what I printed at school today, mum' components, then you're welcome to buy my copy of 1853.


Ah, I see the problem. I'm not 'the sort of mug' who goes to a game publisher to get fancy (or non-fancy) bits of paper. I can get those from any art supplies store. I go to game publishers for games, and I'm willing to pay premium rates for interesting games (in fact, I'm largely price insensitive)

Quote:

Not entirely sure where warrior princesses come into the equation though? Unless it's part of your petulent teenage angsty -'I was into this game back when it was printed on a brown paper bag, way before it "sold out" and became mainstream and trendy, because I'm so cool and underground' thang?

(The original ) 1853 could do with a component upgrade. Wooden station markers for example. If I really wanted them I could make my own.

B>
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J C Lawrence
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MidKentGamerUK wrote:
Is it usual for 18XX games to come with paper tiles or is this reprint unique in not having nice chunky and resilient tiles?


Strange as it may seem, thick track-tiles make the 18xx actually harder to play. It is true. The thicker tiles create parallax between the surface of the tile and the map surface, and make the surface "bumpy" as track lines are traced across tiles, down to the map surface, and back up on tiles, making routes actually harder to see and harder to calculate. The effect seems subtle, but is pervasive and draining, especially on a long game, and most especially as the end of a long game approaches and players are tired (and often cranky). The larger the map, and 1853's map is very large, the larger this problem is. Stupid errors because player's didn't see something due to the game's presentation aren't good and most certainly don't improve the game-experience.

Thin track-tiles, which doesn't mean low quality, it just means of little thickness, actually improve the basic playability of the game, and there are very good reasons that all 18xx other than Steam over Holland use them. Deep Thought Games' track-tiles are about perfect as I am concerned. Stiff, visually clear, consistent, easy to read, easy to trace and process for routes, nearly indestructible, and just all round excellent -- oh and only just a bit thicker than 100lb paper (they're 110lp paper with 5mil lamination on both sides).
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John Bohrer
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thepackrat wrote:
gschmidl wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
John Bohrer wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
Granted, the new 1853 has the getting in the way type graphics.


soblue


Suprised you aren't in the militantly schematic camp, John

B>


Just wait for the 2010 Winsome set -- Princess Rails even comes with dice!


PACKRAT ANGRY! PACKRAT KILL!!

B>


Down Boy, Down. Gunther is just a yahoo. Yes, Bruce, I am firmly in the militantly schematic camp. I have been playing 18xx since '86 and don't like distractions from the game. We don't waste a lot of time, if memory serves me right we played an entire 1830 (no bankruptcy) in 3 hours and 15 minutes with Bob X as the banker in 1989.

I don't mind a lot of stuff in the game, mind you. 1844 is as rich as an 18xx game gets and it is one of my favs.
 
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Sean Shaw
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clearclaw wrote:
MidKentGamerUK wrote:
Is it usual for 18XX games to come with paper tiles or is this reprint unique in not having nice chunky and resilient tiles?


Strange as it may seem, thick track-tiles make the 18xx actually harder to play. It is true. The thicker tiles create parallax between the surface of the tile and the map surface, and make the surface "bumpy" as trak lines are traced across tiles, down to the map surface, and back up on tiles, making routes actually harder to see and harder to calculate. The effect seems subtle, but is pervasive and draining, especially on a long game, and most especially as the end of a long game approaches and players are tired (and often cranky). The larger the map, and 1853's map is very large, the larger this problem is. Stupid errors because player's didn't see something due to the game's presentation an't good and most certainly don't improve the game-experience.

Thin track-tiles, which doesn't mean low quality, it just means of little thickness, actually improve the basic playability of the game, and there are very good reasons that all 18xx other than Stem over Holland use them. Deep Thought Games' track-tiles are about perfect as I am concerned. Stiff, visually clear, consistent, easy to read, easy to trace and process for routes, nearly indestructible, and just all round excellent -- oh and only just a bit thicker than 100lb paper (they're 110lp paper with 5mil lamination on both sides).


I'm a component lover, as you may be able to tell from my AT microbadge...and will rate wargames which I LOVE to play as 1's (on a scale 1-10 with 1 being the lowest) in component quality which upsets quite a few people occasionally...BUT I have to agree on this, big thick chunky FFG type tiles probably would not help an 18XX game and the thin tiles make the game work a LOT better.

IMO of course.
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Hanno Girke
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MidKentGamerUK wrote:
But paper tiles? These things aren't even as sturdy as playing card material - it's not like I'm asking for 3D hand-painted terrain tiles, just something a little more substantial for my £47.99 (plus shipping).


Sorry to disappoint you, but that's not paper.
The tiles are printed on 400g/m2 cardboard - that's as sturdy as you want for the game. Playing cards are normally between 250 and 300 g/m2.
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Bruce Murphy
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Hanno wrote:
MidKentGamerUK wrote:
But paper tiles? These things aren't even as sturdy as playing card material - it's not like I'm asking for 3D hand-painted terrain tiles, just something a little more substantial for my £47.99 (plus shipping).


Sorry to disappoint you, but that's not paper.
The tiles are printed on 400g/m2 cardboard - that's as sturdy as you want for the game. Playing cards are normally between 250 and 300 g/m2.


Remember that time when a company accidentally shipped a prototype copy to a customer? That was amusing

B>
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Dave Kudzma
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Hanno wrote:
MidKentGamerUK wrote:
But paper tiles? These things aren't even as sturdy as playing card material - it's not like I'm asking for 3D hand-painted terrain tiles, just something a little more substantial for my £47.99 (plus shipping).


Sorry to disappoint you, but that's not paper.
The tiles are printed on 400g/m2 cardboard - that's as sturdy as you want for the game. Playing cards are normally between 250 and 300 g/m2.


My mind is still numb that a 18XX game has components THIS GOOD.

18XX games are about game play, not components. The board is ridiculously beautiful by most 18xx standards; which is something many regulars of this series probably won't like because, as John said earlier, it can distract you from the game itself.
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JR
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clearclaw wrote:
Thin track-tiles, which doesn't mean low quality, it just means of little thickness, actually improve the basic playability of the game, and there are very good reasons that all 18xx other than Steam over Holland use them. Deep Thought Games' track-tiles are about perfect as I am concerned. Stiff, visually clear, consistent, easy to read, easy to trace and process for routes, nearly indestructible, and just all round excellent -- oh and only just a bit thicker than 100lb paper (they're 110lp paper with 5mil lamination on both sides).


I picked up 1853 a couple days ago. It's definitely not the same kind of weight as Mayfair's games (56/70), but these are very solid feeling tiles. Like to Kevin up above, if you're really writing off the game because the tiles aren't as thick as you prefer, that's too bad because hopefully you have more criteria than that if you're interested in such a game at all. Was the game on your list because you enjoy the system in the first place or just because it was a popular item with nice art?

The whole debate about tile artwork notwithstanding, these tiles are perfectly serviceable and you really aren't handling 18xx tiles like you handle playing cards. They will stand up to it unless you have a slob group with greasy snacks at the table and stuff, in which case you need everything wrapped in plastic anyways.

Contrary to Mr. Lawrence, however, I do prefer a thicker tile and even a more coarse-textured one. The tiles in 1870 (and I think 1856 is identical) are very thick and rough surfaced and it makes them a pleasure for handling. When you have to find a tile out of the dozens of stacks and frequently be picking them up off of flat surfaces and adjusting them on the map in tight spaces, etc, the Mayfair tile is very easy to lift with one hand without having to fingernail the edge to get traction on the lifting side (which can do a number on cheap cards over time). For that reason I prefer the thicker tile. From a durability standpoint there's no measurable difference and for JC's reasons one can still make a case for the thinner tile as it is.

If you think it's a game you'd like, letting the thickness of the tile stop you seems like a shame.

edit: typo
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