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Subject: How to play Blood Bowl without supporting GW rss

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Gert Corthout
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Dark times are upon us. The evil overlord that is Games Workshop has declared open war upon its customers and game fans. Unfortunately it seems Blood Bowl is being punished on the geek by those who seek to hurt its publisher. Like a people ruled by a ruthless tyrant this game has no choice on who its ruler is. But after many years of neglect and contempt by GW the Blood Bowl fans are long accustomed to its tyranny and have found subservise ways to take control of the game. Over time GW's grasp on this game has become very weak, sure they have the intellectual property, but this is no more then some words on some piece of paper. In essence, this game no longer belongs to GW, it belongs to the fans. Heck, the guy which led the LRB 5 rules rewrite is a co-owner of Impact miniatures which produces minis and accessories which can be used for blood bowl.
Let me show you how to enjoy this game without giving a cent to GW. It's really easy.
Viva la revolucion!

Rules

The latest rulebook is freely downloadable from gw's site. Yes, it's from GW but it's free. Enjoy it while it lasts.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=...

Board

You will need one. You have 3 options: make one from scratch, print one out or buy from a different company then GW.

Build from scratch is the cheapest but will obviously cost you the most effort.
This blogger describes how to do it:
http://exponentwargames.blogspot.com/2009/01/blood-bowl-pitc...
Frank Becker also has an excellent site:
http://bloodbowl.beckerf.de/html/stadiums.html

From these sites you can download an image which you can print and glue to cardboard/wood to create your very own pitch:
http://www.creatish.com/core/sam/lord_of_the_boards/html/des...
http://webspace.webring.com/people/wp/pitch_witch

You'll also need dugouts. The dugout contains 3 spaces: reserves, knocked out and injured. Real easy to make yourself (can be done with a pen and a piece of paper).
It also contains the turn marker. This can easily be replaced by a generic d8. The reroll marker can be replaced by a simple d6.
Impact also sells dugouts:
http://www.impactminiatures.com/index.php?option=gamemat

Templates and dice

The scatter and throwin template can very easily be recreated by reading the manual. You don't even need them if you make a clear agreement before every scatter/throwin roll: nominate a square which represents 1 and then count up the other squares clockwise.
The passing template is trickier but this can be replaced by the lookup table on this site:
http://www.dangermouse.net/games/bloodbowl/rules.html

Regular d6 and d8 are easy to get hold of. The blocking dice are harder. One way to get your hands on some is to join the NAF, these buy the dice from GW at production cost, so GW is not making any profit from it. GW is in no way commercially invested in the NAF:
thenaf.net

But you can also buy the impact dice:
http://www.impactminiatures.com/index.php?option=dice_profil...

Or just use regular d6's and use this lookup table:
1: Attacker Down
2: Both Down
3: Push
4: Push
5: Defender Down or Push (exclamation mark)
6: Defender Down

Often fans run tourneys and have a custom pitches/block dice/templates/minis made for the attendants. The leftovers are usually sold on www.talkfantasyfootball.com and Ebay.

miniatures

You don't even need miniatures. You could use lego, bottlecaps, meeples, tiddlywinks, little stuffed animals, cardboard/paper cutouts or even real people (as long as you have a matching board, it's been done before!). But the game does look a lot better if you use real miniatures. These companies sell fantasy football miniatures which are the right size to be used on a regular board:
http://www.impactminiatures.com/
http://www.shadowforge.com.au
http://www.rolljordan.com

Don't use gw stuff to paint them. All the painting tools (brushes and so on) you need should be available in your local hobby shop. Vallejo makes quality paints for painting minis:
http://www.vallejopaints.co.uk/


Obviously you could buy GW products from ebay, but you have no guarantee the seller won't spend the money on his 40k addiction.

Hopefully GW will see it's BB income decrease and it will sell the rights for BB to another company, like FFG, which will give this amazing game the support it deserves. It's not very likely, but maybe it is possible!
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Nick L
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gert_c wrote:
Board

You will need one. You have 3 options: make one from scratch, print one out or buy from a different company then GW.

Build from scratch is the cheapest but will obviously cost you the most effort...

You'll also need dugouts. The dugout contains 3 spaces: reserves, knocked out and injured. Real easy to make yourself (can be done with a pen and a piece of paper).
It also contains the turn marker.


I also posted pdf files for my board and dugouts to the files section- they seem to still be there.

Dugouts:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/47346




Board (tiled for printing):
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/47342


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Noel
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Let's say that everyone decided to do this and as a result GW made no money from Blood Bowl and decided to kill the game.
You would then cry bloody murder because they discontinued it.
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Graham Smallwood
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n815e wrote:
Let's say that everyone decided to do this and as a result GW made no money from Blood Bowl and decided to kill the game.
You would then cry bloody murder because they discontinued it.


Which wouldn't matter because the game exists already.
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Gert Corthout
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n815e wrote:
Let's say that everyone decided to do this and as a result GW made no money from Blood Bowl and decided to kill the game.
You would then cry bloody murder because they discontinued it.

It wouldn't be much different then it is now. This game is alive due to the community, not GW.
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Christian Skupin
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n815e wrote:
Let's say that everyone decided to do this and as a result GW made no money from Blood Bowl and decided to kill the game.
You would then cry bloody murder because they discontinued it.


The game has been effectively discontinued. The living rulebook is community charitywork that gets a nod from GW to be called official.

3 additional teams that should have been featured in LRB6 are left out, because GW didn't nod to those for the lack of will to produce miniatures for them. So if GW can't sell em your not supposed to enjoy them. To wich the community - tournament organisers in general - say: sod off, we allow those teams anyway.

Add to this the latest threat of GW to reedit LRB6 or not "officially" release it if other companys than GW would come out with miniatures for newly added starplayers and then it's clear what's GW's role in the world of Blood Bowl: being a pain in the ass. Keeping this game alive and kicking is none of their concerns whatsoever.

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David Winter
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Someone gave me 88gg for a rules translation and all I got was this lousy overtext
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gert_c wrote:

Obviously you could buy GW products from ebay, but you have no guarantee the seller won't spend the money on his 40k addiction.

Hopefully GW will see it's BB income decrease and it will sell the rights for BB to another company, like FFG, which will give this amazing game the support it deserves. It's not very likely, but maybe it is possible!


What complete and utter dross.

Bloodbowl stands complete, the minor tweaks don't show that the game isn't being supported, just that it doesn't need to be supported.

FFG acquiring the rights is NEVER going to happen, and would not improve the game, beyond offering a new retail starter set, which would suit some people, but everything needed to play bloodbowl is freely available already anyway.

GW know all these materials are available, and could have pulled the free to download LRB off the web at any time, instead of keeping it in place, and allowing the updates and downloads to continue.

Sales of bloodbowl miniatures are insignificant at this point, a bloodbowl boycott is not going to hurt GW in any way.
All you could hope to acheive is driving the bloodbowl miniatures line out of production, which would punish players more than GW itself.
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Gert Corthout
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dedindahed wrote:
gert_c wrote:

Obviously you could buy GW products from ebay, but you have no guarantee the seller won't spend the money on his 40k addiction.

Hopefully GW will see it's BB income decrease and it will sell the rights for BB to another company, like FFG, which will give this amazing game the support it deserves. It's not very likely, but maybe it is possible!


What complete and utter dross.

Bloodbowl stands complete, the minor tweaks don't show that the game isn't being supported, just that it doesn't need to be supported.

I beg to differ. Besides that most of the current mini sculpts are over 15 years old and horribly outdated (eg High Elves) new teams were supposed to be added, but they were refused because GW didn't want to invest in creating new sculpts. New star players were added but no figs exist for them because GW won't invest! The base game's printed rules are years outdated!
The new rules were made by the fans with almost zero involvement from GW (besides publishing the pdf on their site).

Quote:
FFG acquiring the rights is NEVER going to happen, and would not improve the game, beyond offering a new retail starter set, which would suit some people, but everything needed to play bloodbowl is freely available already anyway.

If you were keeping up to date with the game you'd know that an offer had been made to acquire the BB license (not by FFG though) a few years ago. GW didn't dismiss it outright, they named their price, which was waaaaay to high for that company at the time.
Besides that there's precedence:
The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay license was sold to FFG.
Talisman was published by FFG.

How is BB any different from say BattleLore? You have the base set and extra minis (Team Sets and Star Players). That's it.

Quote:
Sales of bloodbowl miniatures are insignificant at this point, a bloodbowl boycott is not going to hurt GW in any way.

That's not the point, of course GW gets its income from LotR, WHFB and 40k and doesn't give a crap about anything else. Point is when they are short of cash they might see that selling the BB licence might be a good idea, it's not their core business and I think they can get a nice price for it.

Quote:
All you could hope to acheive is driving the bloodbowl miniatures line out of production, which would punish players more than GW itself.

Could happen, for the reasons stated above I don't think so though.
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Victor Garcia
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Talking of old miniatures vs new rules:

The Dark Elves lost the Thrower in LRB5, replaced by a Runner. But GW still sells the old DE Thrower miniature! They are even labeled "Coureur" (Runner) in the French GW page.

Nice pose for a runner
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David Winter
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gert_c wrote:

I beg to differ. Besides that most of the current mini sculpts are over 15 years old and horribly outdated (eg High Elves) new teams were supposed to be added, but they were refused because GW didn't want to invest in creating new sculpts. New star players were added but no figs exist for them because GW won't invest! The base game's printed rules are years outdated!
The new rules were made by the fans with almost zero involvement from GW (besides publishing the pdf on their site).


Your stance that GW deserves none of the credit for anything good about BB, and all of the blame for anything bad about BB is frankly laughable.

The main factor that keeps BB alive is that it is a fantastic game, a game that deserves and has a community, It helps that an official, supported live rulebook exists, as a single point of reference is needed somewhere.

True the work is largely community based, but there is still GW guidance and staff involved in the project. They could have taken the stance that BB is not a cash cow so ditch it, but they didn't, and they deserve at least some credit for that.

There is perhaps some merit to the argument that they do not wish to re-release bloodbowl as they prefer newcomers to the hobby to get into games that require larger volumes of figures, and while this may suck for a BB player, you can't fault them from a business perspective.

gert_c wrote:

If you were keeping up to date with the game you'd know that an offer had been made to acquire the BB license (not by FFG though) a few years ago. GW didn't dismiss it outright, they named their price, which was waaaaay to high for that company at the time.
Besides that there's precedence:
The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay license was sold to FFG.
Talisman was published by FFG.

The price is always going to be too high, especially now GW have an active BB computer game licencse.

WFRP was moved along with the whole black library, as GW outsuorced books in favour of focusing on miniatures, all of the boardgames FG accquired the rights to are non miniatures based. If they were going to hand over miniatures based games FFG would have been doing the 3rd ed space hulk reprint.

Getting into BB without rewarding GW has been the standard method of doing things for a few years now, everything you need has been freely available on the web, and as yet GW has not taken any legal action to prevent this happening, which seems contrary to the "if we aren't making money we'll destroy it" attitude they are being accused of.

The fact is BB is out there, it is complete, you can get EVERYTHING you need for a lifetime of BB gaming through various sources and it's more available, cheaper and easier to get hold of than many OOP grail games.
New teams and sculpts is not really economically viable, converting your own star players is.
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Karl Schmidt

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Heresy makes some minatures that could be used with Blood Bowl as well.

http://www.heresyminiatures.com/deathball.htm
 
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Gert Corthout
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dedindahed wrote:

Your stance that GW deserves none of the credit for anything good about BB, and all of the blame for anything bad about BB is frankly laughable.

Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said. In my culture that's very rude.

Quote:
The main factor that keeps BB alive is that it is a fantastic game, a game that deserves and has a community, It helps that an official, supported live rulebook exists, as a single point of reference is needed somewhere.

I even agree with you here.

Quote:
True the work is largely community based, but there is still GW guidance and staff involved in the project. They could have taken the stance that BB is not a cash cow so ditch it, but they didn't, and they deserve at least some credit for that.

GW guidance??? Seriously have you even followed the discussions on the new rules??? It has taken a lot of persuasion by the community to let JJ ditch most of his half baked ideas. It's the community doing the guiding, not the other way round! Ever heard of gold or 4th edition? This was the last ruleset published by GW. It was horrible! If it weren't for the community making a decent rules version back then the game would have been dead.
JJ is a brilliant creative mind. He has a knack for creating games but he is really poor at balancing them once the game exists.

Quote:
There is perhaps some merit to the argument that they do not wish to re-release bloodbowl as they prefer newcomers to the hobby to get into games that require larger volumes of figures, and while this may suck for a BB player, you can't fault them from a business perspective.

I do not fault them for that. But they have a valuable license on their hands, I wish they would sell or rent it to a company that would give support.
My point is that the community has done most of the work that turned blood bowl from a very good to an absolutely great game. But there is no support from GW. There's a lot of potential being absolutely wasted here.
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Kevin Nieman
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I appreciate the desire for fans of GW games to stick it to GW for the recent fan-unfriendly tactics, but I have a better idea:

Don't play GW games. It's what I do to stick it to the "man" and it works. GW has never received my money and never will.

Why is this so difficult to understand?
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Victor Garcia
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Because some of the games are dead fun!!!
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Victor Garcia
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gert_c wrote:
It's the community doing the guiding, not the other way round! Ever heard of gold or 4th edition? This was the last ruleset published by GW. It was horrible! If it weren't for the community making a decent rules version back then the game would have been dead.





Do you mean I have to blame the community for making my DE Thrower miniature obsolete, and not GW???

Where can I read about the reason for that change??
 
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Gert Corthout
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red_zebra_ve wrote:
gert_c wrote:
It's the community doing the guiding, not the other way round! Ever heard of gold or 4th edition? This was the last ruleset published by GW. It was horrible! If it weren't for the community making a decent rules version back then the game would have been dead.





Do you mean I have to blame the community for making my DE Thrower miniature obsolete, and not GW???

Where can I read about the reason for that change??

Yes.
Most of the discussion was done on http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org.
The reason it was changed was to make the elf teams more different, Dark Elves were always my favoute race and I very much like the change.
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Geir Erik Ø
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As long as you are playing Blood Bowl you are supporting GW. Not by generating cashflow, but by keeping the game alive. This is good advertizing and will in the end generate money for GW. Not that I mind.

Asking BGG to remove four files and ask BGG to have a close look at what is uploaded is fair with me.

I already got five teams, so personally I guess I woun't be buying more for Blood Bowl.
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David Winter
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Dante_Cubit wrote:
I appreciate the desire for fans of GW games to stick it to GW for the recent fan-unfriendly tactics, but I have a better idea:

Don't play GW games. It's what I do to stick it to the "man" and it works. GW has never received my money and never will.

Why is this so difficult to understand?


No, most of the people agressively trying to stick it to GW are outraged nerds who've never touched a GW game in their life.

Everyone I know who already plays GW games has continued to play them through this incident.

Bloodbowl is simply one of the finest games ever created, and people will keep on playing it regardless of GW's corporate activities.
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Jim Patching
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People keep going on about the fact that GW don't support Blood Bowl but really, what more do they need to do? The rules are free on-line, you can buy the boxed set with the board from their web-site and all of the team's have models easily available. They're actually periodically releasing additional star player models too.

Essentially the game is complete.

Let's say that GW did start producing new models for the various teams on a large scale or releasing new sculpts for existing models - how long before people start whining that GW is only releasing these models because they want to fleece the 'fans' of more money?

Blood Bowl is a Games Workshop game. I say if you want to play Blood Bowl, play Blood Bowl. If you don't want to support Games Workshop, play something else.
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Markus Rathgeb
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panzer-attack wrote:
People keep going on about the fact that GW don't support Blood Bowl but really, what more do they need to do? The rules are free on-line, you can buy the boxed set with the board from their web-site and all of the team's have models easily available. They're actually periodically releasing additional star player models too.

Essentially the game is complete.

Let's say that GW did start producing new models for the various teams on a large scale or releasing new sculpts for existing models - how long before people start whining that GW is only releasing these models because they want to fleece the 'fans' of more money?

Blood Bowl is a Games Workshop game. I say if you want to play Blood Bowl, play Blood Bowl. If you don't want to support Games Workshop, play something else.


There's nothing more to say thumbsup

If there's a game I want to play, I will buy it. I may copy each boardgame, but playing with self-cut paper-cards or a self printed gameboard... there's something missing. If I pimp my game after having bought it, is a different act. I built a foamcore gameboard for BB, included dicetower, stats, ... - but I have the original board, rules, ...

I won't support GW anymore (at least that's what I think today) - but I won't go this far to copy their games etc. to play them. There are enough good games outside just waiting for me
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"Don't play GW games. It's what I do to stick it to the "man" and it works. GW has never received my money and never will."

Yet you somehow feel compelled to visit a BGG page for one of their games and comment on it. At least fans who feel burned have valid complaints!
 
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panzer-attack wrote:
People keep going on about the fact that GW don't support Blood Bowl but really, what more do they need to do? The rules are free on-line, you can buy the boxed set with the board from their web-site and all of the team's have models easily available. They're actually periodically releasing additional star player models too.

Essentially the game is complete.

Let's say that GW did start producing new models for the various teams on a large scale or releasing new sculpts for existing models - how long before people start whining that GW is only releasing these models because they want to fleece the 'fans' of more money?

Blood Bowl is a Games Workshop game. I say if you want to play Blood Bowl, play Blood Bowl. If you don't want to support Games Workshop, play something else.


Well not quite

There's a host of Star Players that officially exist yet have no official sculpt, yet we're on to our 3rd Griff and 2nd Zug. There's three official teams with no miniatures that exist in a competitive limbo.

Even half-hearted support for the game would be better than the no-mans land the game exists in at the moment, I think thats what irritates fans the most about it. GW could quite easily licence the IP to a third party like they have with WHFRP, but chooses not to.

Personally I play with mostly 80's era miniatures, I've bought only a little from GW with regards to Blood Bowl, but thats mostly because I have nothing to buy. I'm not holding any hope for anything, but I sure would like a new High Elf team.
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Jason Sherlock
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red_zebra_ve wrote:
Talking of old miniatures vs new rules:

The Dark Elves lost the Thrower in LRB5, replaced by a Runner. But GW still sells the old DE Thrower miniature! They are even labeled "Coureur" (Runner) in the French GW page.

Nice pose for a runner


Yeah but he his a runner in name only. He starts with a passing skill and can pick up passing skills without rolling doubles. The dark elves don't play quite like the other elf teams, but the runner does tend to be the one who does a lot of the throwing.
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Victor Garcia
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They still sell the miniatures devil, or publish some "rules" , options that Man O' War fans do not have cry
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William Baldwin
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I just found a supplier of blank dice and remembered this thread, so thought I would add it in case anyone wants to make their own dice.

Dice
http://www.blankdice.co.uk/

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