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Subject: Overrated? rss

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Sam Lonberg
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After playing several games of W:I, my brother and are underwhelmed by the game. It reminds me of some games I have played in the past where you have 1,000 options available, but only a few valid ones. It seems like there are a lot of cards with subtle abilities to get creative with, but the direct approach of putting most of your units in the battlefield and attacking the least defended zone will usually be the best strategy.

Is there really any chance of actual strategic choices and tense battles happening? Or is the player who gets his units in the battlefield the quickest going to win most of the time?

Right now, it seems that if you aren't playing your units in the Battlefield Zone, you are more or less wasting your turn.

-Sam
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Michael Jordal
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I am wondering if you are playing the game correctly as you need to play units in your Kindom in quest zone to generate resources, draw cards and defend them.

I really like the game, but all the air came out of my sails wit the expansions.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Definitely. There is a lot of choice regarding which region to play your units in, and your notion that units should almost always go in the battlefield makes me feel that you are doing something wrong.

First of all, you need resources to play units, particularly good units. Even if your opponent takes a few easy shots at your undefended areas early on, once you gain a significant advantage in resources, you can freely throw down capable defenders wherever they are needed, and finally fill up your battlefield.

Some things you may be doing wrong:
-only units in the area being targeted can defend. If you have a massive army in the battlefield, it won't do a lot of good when I just attack a different area.
-you can only assign damage to units that are chosen by the defender to participate in the defense. Once I build up enough power in the kingdom, you cannot just destroy it all quite so easily, as I can just leave my most valuable income providers out of the battles.
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Brad Miller
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Jormi_Boced wrote:
I am wondering if you are playing the game correctly as you need to play units in your Kindom in quest zone to generate resources, draw cards and defend them.

I really like the game, but all the air came out of my sails wit the expansions.


What about the Battlepacks disappointed you?
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Sam Lonberg
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I understand the game, but why would you do anything but attack your opponents zone as quickly and as hard as possible? This seems like the most efficent and effective way to victory.

Maybe the subtler strategies occur when you can't draw the units you want right away and have to buy time. It just sucks when your opponent gets great units upfront and you don't. Turns into a massacre.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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slonberg wrote:
I understand the game, but why would you do anything but attack your opponents zone as quickly and as hard as possible? This seems like the most efficent and effective way to victory.

Maybe the subtler strategies occur when you can't draw the units you want right away and have to buy time. It just sucks when your opponent gets great units upfront and you don't. Turns into a massacre.


You can't play most of the units in your deck if you don't get more than 3 resources!

Another rule you MIGHT be playing wrong, at the beginning of your turn you discard all excess resources before receiving your Kingdom phase income. This could make a huge difference in strategy.
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Steve
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You have at least 16 health, much more if you play developments. Most cards don't do much damage at all, usually 1 or 2 hammers at most.

Someone just putting cards in their battlefield will run out of cards very quickly, get only one card to replace it. On top of that they'll only be able to play 3 resource or lower cards while the other player investing will be able to play much more powerful units to crush their opponent's weak 3 resource units.

I'd definitely say that your direct approach is by far not the only one in W:I.
 
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Michael Jordal
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Windopaene wrote:
Jormi_Boced wrote:
I am wondering if you are playing the game correctly as you need to play units in your Kindom in quest zone to generate resources, draw cards and defend them.

I really like the game, but all the air came out of my sails wit the expansions.


What about the Battlepacks disappointed you?


I am a big fan of the Warhammer universe and making Skaven neutral rubs me all wrong.
 
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Steve
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Well, neutral destruction. Were you hoping they'd be a new full race?
 
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Damon Stone
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I'm guessing neither of you are playing Order races. Dwarves eat players with that strategy alive. There ability to heal and cancel damage makes that strategy pretty worthless unless they receive bad draws and the opponent very good ones... which of course is much harder to do if they are only drawing a single card a turn. Empire with their mobility and Counterstrike (which often kills an attacker before it does any damage) allow them to develop their Kingdom and Quest Zones which means they will outspend and outdraw anyone who is dumping units into the battlefield.

Now of course if you guys are placing all supports into your KZ and QZ and all units only into the BZ, then you will get some more draw and resources, but you have nothing to defend with and are relying on you being able to race against your opponent. Blitzkrieg is always a valid tactic, but it is rarely the best strategy. It gives you no options and is based entirely on being bigger and faster than your opponent, which means it is a roll of the dice who gets their best cards first. I'd suggest heading to your FLGS and see who else plays. I suspect you two have fallen into a pattern where you can't see that exploring the other strategic options gives you as good a chance as the blitz. Someone who is outside of your group will see other options and likely to have developed more nuanced strategies that you will find you have no answer for.

When you face a Nurgle deck I suspect you will rethink this approach.
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Sam Lonberg
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You might be right in that my opponent and I have the same viewpoint/strategy for the game and they just degenerate into races to get units into the BZ as quickly as possible. I should try a much different approach next time and see if it can beat the blitz.

It's also possible that I'm looking for depth in a game that does not have what I'm looking for.

-Sam
 
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Damon Stone
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That is always possible. The game is intended to be relatively fast paced, more of a RTS war game played through cards than chess or go played through cards (in which case you'd probably like A Game of Thrones LCG or Legends of the Five Rings).

You might want to look at the FFG forum for W:I and see some of the strategy and deck discussions. If you want to see the way to deal with Orc Blitz there are a few decks and strategies discussed, but I'd suggestthe Dwarves with a Splash of Empire if you want the ability to shrug off blitzes. A Keystone Forge or two and a Contested Fortress or two and the Blitz just becomes near pointless. Toss in Defend the Border and some Counterstrike and your opponent won't want to attack.
 
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Joachim Pehl
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Jormi_Boced wrote:
Windopaene wrote:
Jormi_Boced wrote:
I am wondering if you are playing the game correctly as you need to play units in your Kindom in quest zone to generate resources, draw cards and defend them.

I really like the game, but all the air came out of my sails wit the expansions.


What about the Battlepacks disappointed you?


I am a big fan of the Warhammer universe and making Skaven neutral rubs me all wrong.


Huh, all Skaven are Destruction-only. They just don't have loyalty symbols (which makes kind of sense for those little backstabbers )
 
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Michael Jordal
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garysax wrote:
Well, neutral destruction. Were you hoping they'd be a new full race?


Yes, they should get the symbol of the horned rat and a Skavenblight capital card. This really dissapointed me and I haven't felt compelled to buy any of the new cards.
 
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Damon Stone
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To each their own I guess. A seventh race would have made the game unwieldly, and placed expectations by every other fan of WHFB army that they would get their own playable race. As a LCG it is a different beast entirely than the TTG and, not surprisingly, is treated differently.

If having Skaven working with (or at least from) an Orc, Dark Elf, or Chaos Capitol is to against the fluff for you to enjoy the game I hope you find something more suited to your tastes. The Skaven were my favorite army, but I enjoy the game regardless (of course I was 90% sure that FFG had no intentions of releasing more than 6 races so didn't get my hopes up).
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Lee Hodgson
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slonberg wrote:


Is there really any chance of actual strategic choices and tense battles happening?
-Sam


I've brought this game out to my parents house in Nova Scotia for the Christmas Holidays and have been doing solo games just to learn the ropes before I go back home to Calgary in a week . I've played out a couple of games from start to finish and to answer the tense battles question I have to answer absolutely . One game in particular was a Chaos vs Ork ( not very thematic but at this point I'm just learning still ) and as I know a solo venture isn't quite the way its to be played , this one was fantastic . It came down to a burning Questzone with the Chaos and 7 hits on the BF and only 1 in the kingdom . Ork had a burning Battlefield and 5 hits on the kingdom with only 2 on the quest . On the final quest turn for Chaos they pulled enough units to hit the last 3 damage on the Ork's kingdom to claim a win knowing that if the draw had no units the ork could kill the last point on the Chaos battlefield . I failed to document the play session but it was awesome .
 
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Booker Hooker
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Lemme answer the question again, even though it has allready been answered several times.

Here is my take on sending everything to the battlefield. If the Dwarves focus on sending all their units to the battlfield in hopes of a quick win, they will slowly build up their fighting units while doing some quick initial damage.

If the Orcs on the other side send their units to the Kingdom while setting out 2 or 3 defensive units to the Quest zone, they can basically give up the battlefield while firmly establishing a defense in the other two zones, and at the same time quickly building up their resources and card draws.

Resources and card draws are key to staying ahead in this game. You need a large total force (units, developments, and support). Without bringing several new cards into your hand each turn, and steadily increasing your resource draw each turn, you can't expect to stay in the game.

Defense is way easier to get out than offense. Once you get 6-10 health worth of shields in the Quest and Kingdom zones, you can start adding to your battlefield. By this point you'll be gaining 10+ resources per turn, and drawing several cards per turn. It won't take you long to build a strong Battlefield this way, and usually my armies are so strong that I can do quite a bit of damage in one attack. There have been several attacks in the 10 or so games I've played where I've attacked with over 20 damage (with the Orcs).

By protecting your two side zones, you're also setting yourself up to bring out a large army. Give it a try but don't tell your brother what you're going to do. (Does he read these forums?)

Good luck. It's a really fun game. Don't give up on it yet.
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Sam Lonberg
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My biggest initial problems with the game are:

(1) Units just summoned into play can attack that turn

(2) Attacking units don't "tap"

Every CCG-type game I have ever played used a mechanic whereby a card is 'tapped' when attacking or using an ability. I believe there is a reason for this- it forces you to choose which units to attack/use and which to save to defend with.

-Sam
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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slonberg wrote:
My biggest initial problems with the game are:

(1) Units just summoned into play can attack that turn

(2) Attacking units don't "tap"

Every CCG-type game I have ever played used a mechanic whereby a card is 'tapped' when attacking or using an ability. I believe there is a reason for this- it forces you to choose which units to attack/use and which to save to defend with.

-Sam


Those are my biggest plusses. Also, attacking can only take place via Units in the Battlefield, so unless your opponent is attacking the BZ, they won't be able to defent anyways.

Of the CCG-type games I've played, Spellfire doesn't have tapping, Middle-Earth ccg has, but can choose not to (in combat), Star Wars CCG doesn't have tapping for attack.
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Damon Stone
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So your complaint is that this is not Magic? It is valid, but I would have thought the Warhammer:Invasion title and the FFG logo would have tipped you off that this is different.

Why choose between attacking or defending when you can choose between placing your units in a defensive position or an attacking and defensive position. What is gained to this game by making cards in the Battlefield inherently weaker than cards in your Quest and Kingdom Zones?

Why is "summoning sickness" a good thing? What does it add to the game that can't be (and isn't) achieved in other ways/areas?

That is like getting upset that only one piece in Chess gets to jump other pieces, and even then it doesn't kill them like in Checkers. They are two different games separated by years and made by two different groups, why would you expect them to be so similar on a fundamental level?

I personally prefer the much more open-ended design of W:I because it gives me more choices to make, more places to succeed or fail based on my in game decisions rather than just deck design.
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Joachim Pehl
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Dam the Man wrote:
slonberg wrote:
My biggest initial problems with the game are:

(1) Units just summoned into play can attack that turn

(2) Attacking units don't "tap"

Every CCG-type game I have ever played used a mechanic whereby a card is 'tapped' when attacking or using an ability. I believe there is a reason for this- it forces you to choose which units to attack/use and which to save to defend with.

-Sam


Those are my biggest plusses. Also, attacking can only take place via Units in the Battlefield, so unless your opponent is attacking the BZ, they won't be able to defent anyways.

Of the CCG-type games I've played, Spellfire doesn't have tapping, Middle-Earth ccg has, but can choose not to (in combat), Star Wars CCG doesn't have tapping for attack.



Agreed, (Netrunner also had no tapping mechanism for making a run)
Warhammer is a pretty aggressive game which is fine for me. But it could also be its downfall, currently it works great but if more cards like the spider riders or the skaven appear it could become too fast.
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Damon Stone
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That is a possibility, but Chaos and Dwarves have pretty good mechanics for slowing down rush decks, and Empire can go either way depending on how you build it.
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slonberg wrote:
My biggest initial problems with the game are:

(1) Units just summoned into play can attack that turn

(2) Attacking units don't "tap"

Every CCG-type game I have ever played used a mechanic whereby a card is 'tapped' when attacking or using an ability. I believe there is a reason for this- it forces you to choose which units to attack/use and which to save to defend with.

-Sam


Nah, it just sounds like you wanted another Magic clone. I, for one along with many others, am extremely glad that this is its own game.
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Michael Jordal
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It is funny that some people criticize it for being too much like magic while others criticize it for not being enough like magic.
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Sam Lonberg
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Problem solved. My brother and I started playing L5R. Blows W:I away.
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