Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
9 Posts

Agricola: Farmers of the Moor» Forums » Rules

Subject: Pot Roast Recipe (M029) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
The card explicitly says Major Improvements. Does that mean it can't be used with the K Deck Cooking Hearth Minor Improvement (from the Base Set)? Seems a little silly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany
Hanover
Lower Saxony
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Editor at Lookout Games
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't have the card at hand, but if it says "Major", then it's major only.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sverre
Norway
Oslo
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In Farmers of the Moor, some Minor improvements are considered Major improvements - if they upgrade a Major improvement.

So the question is what the cost for Cooking Hearth Minor Improvement is - does it mention something like Upgrading a Fireplace, for example?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sverre wrote:
In Farmers of the Moor, some Minor improvements are considered Major improvements - if they upgrade a Major improvement.

So the question is what the cost for Cooking Hearth Minor Improvement is - does it mention something like Upgrading a Fireplace, for example?


In fact, only the Church mentions "Upgrading"; Horse Butcher and Living History Museum don't mention Upgrading at all. But they too are Major Minor Improvements, so I'd say that something like the K Deck Cooking Hearth is also a Major Minor Improvement.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eugene van der Pijll
Netherlands
Leidschendam
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zeroth hour wrote:
I'd say that something like the K Deck Cooking Hearth is also a Major Minor Improvement.

I'd agree with that.

Another question: can it be used with the Simple Fireplace, which is a minor improvement and NOT an upgrade of a major improvement? (Probably not.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany
Hanover
Lower Saxony
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Editor at Lookout Games
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I disagree. A minor improvement is any card that says "minor improvement", a major improvement is one that says "major improvement". Cards like the K deck Cooking Hearth are still minor improvements. Within the minor improvement deck, they're called "upgrades". However, although upgrades may upgrade major improvements, they are no major improvements. The terminology in Agricola is very clear and distinct.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tibs
United States
Boston
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ponton wrote:
A minor improvement is any card that says "minor improvement", a major improvement is one that says "major improvement". Although upgrades may upgrade major improvements, they are no major improvements. The terminology in Agricola is very clear and distinct.

But we're talking about rules from the Moor expansion, which blur this distinction. Sverre has a point.

I'll take a stab at this....

The (English) rules for the Moor expansion say:

Upgrades to Major Improvements are counted as both Minor and Major Improvements (see color on the cards)...
The color of the border around the picture and the marks on either side of it shows that the Church is also a Major Improvement.


There is a lot to dissect here. The only Minor Improvements that actually have the red border around the picture are:

M028 Open Grill (returns a Fireplace)
M044 Built-in Oven (returns the Furnace)
M058 Living History Museum (returns the Museum of the Moors)
M087 Horse Butcher (discards a Horse Slaughterhouse)
M132 Church (discards the Village Church)

These are obviously both Major and Minor Improvements. It is irrelevant whether the Pot Roast Recipe works with the Open Grill because the Open Grill cooks horses at the same rate.

The cards from the base game's Minor Improvements that are "upgrades" of Major Improvements because they return/discard a Major Improvement are:

014 Baker's Oven (returns an Oven of your choice)
065 Baker's Kitchen (returns an Oven of your choice)
066 Village Well (returns the Well)
085 Cooking Corner (returns the Cooking Hearth)
106 Bakehouse (returns an Oven of your choice)
122 Sawmill (return the Joinery)
128 Cooking Hearth (returns a Fireplace)

Since the Moor expansion introduced the concept of improvement duality, of course these cards do not have the red border. Remember that the Moor expansion was designed for use with the Moor's Minor Improvements only, so it's not a huge stretch to count these cards as Major/Minor upgrade-style cards like the five from the Moor expansion. This is of course my own opinion. But a Cooking Hearth is a Cooking Hearth. What makes the one you're dealt so special that you can't use a horse-cooking recipe?

The Simple Fireplace (020) is a different story. It it not an upgrade of any Major Improvement, so even by a looser interpretation of the Moor's rules, it is not itself a Major Improvement. However, I personally think that in the text for the Pot Roast Recipe, the reference to the "Fireplace or Cooking Hearth Major Improvements" was just being concise so that the players knew where to look to find the relevant cards. Keep in mind that the base game's Minor Improvements were not considered when designing the Pot Roast Recipe. In that light, I'd count the Simple Fireplace towards the Pot Roast Recipe because it is still a Fireplace.

Additionally, since the Simple Fireplace is still a Fireplace, if you "upgrade" it into an Open Grill, the Open Grill still counts as a Major and Minor Improvement, because that was its intent.


So:

The Built-In Oven, Church, Horse Butcher, Living History Museum, and Open Grill are simultaneously Major and Minor Improvements, no doubt about it.

When used with the Moor expansion, the Baker's Oven, Baker's Kitchen, Village Well, Cooking Corner, Bakehouse, Cooking Hearth (MI), and Sawmill should count as both Major and Minor Improvements, as the only criteria they don't fit is the red inner border because it wasn't invented yet. This rule can probably be used for games without the Moor expansion as well. It's just a good universal rule.

The Simple Fireplace is not a Major Improvement, but should be allowed to use the Pot Roast Recipe.

Edit: added Sawmill
10 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany
Hanover
Lower Saxony
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Editor at Lookout Games
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks, Tibs, seems I've missed a rule here. I'll have a look at them once more, but I'm fairly sure you're right. Something in my head says, I've read something like this in the past.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Anderson
United States
seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Two Time Cancer Survivor - Never Give Up. Never Surrender. -Jason Nesmith from Galaxy Quest (1999 movie)
badge
Seattle Seahawks Super Bowl XLVIII Champions!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I make the best pot roast. You mix one packet brown gravy, one packet italian dressing, one packet ranch dressing, one onion sliced, a few garlic cloves, one box beef broth and 3 pounds pot roast. Cook in pressure cooker for one hour at medium pressure. Release the pressure and remove the meat. Thicken the liquid with a little corn starch to make a nice gravy. The meat comes out super tender. Yum!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.