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Subject: The Purpo$e Driven Life rss

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Sam I am
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What does he think he is the US government?

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/12/31/2009-12-31_evang...

As an atheist I'm praying to invisible non-existent space aliens that NO ONE sends money... Of course the faithfull will cough up and it will be a 'miracle'.

How many poor could you feed and clothe with that kind of $. God forbid you turn the heat down or some such...

Just a rant... I remember when that evangelist (Swaggert?) locked himself in a room to trying to raise cash. Claming that if not enough money was raised by so-and-so date God would take him to heaven. A friend’s mom got a solicitation for it in the mail. I snagged it and sent it back with the following prayer request. "That God would strike down false prophets." (I didn't include a check so I'm sure he never saw it.)

Hey mabe O is approaching healh care all wrong... maybe he should call out for donations, because heath care for the poor is the work of the lord?

I don't know just rambling... what do you guys (and gals) think?
 
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Luke Morris
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It's between him and the church members who happily sign up to the church and to his leadership. Maybe they will give the money, maybe they won't.

Personally I think there are far more terrible church pursuits to spend money on than homeless ministry, "food pantry" and counselling.

If he was asking for money for a new Ferrari or a sparkly new white suit or an extension to his house then it'd be another matter.




My church back in Birmingham, UK, makes the annual financial report available to all church members. Unless the eldership have gone out of their way to hire underhand accountants or have gone into money laundry then their expenditures are all very reasonable for a church who look towards helping the poor in both the city and the rest of the world. Also, I'm happy to pay towards the rent of the building that I enjoy meeting in each week.

Well, until I came out to Japan anyway
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True Blue Jon
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I read that Rick Warren was so overwhelmed with the success of his book that he and his wife decided to "reverse tithe" and give 90% of is income to help others and live on 10%. I don't know much else about him but I thought that was a good thing.
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Luke Morris
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I read about a missionary (I'm so embarrassed that I've forgotten who it is) who learnt that he could live on a certain amount of money a month. At the time he was destitute and it was just enough to survive on.
Over the course of his life he got more successful and the money followed but every month he gave away all his money to the poor and those in need, just keeping that "minimum" amount.

Pretty challenging.
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Sam I am
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I bet he'd take a check from just about anywhere (hense the publicity IMHO).

I not saying that EVERY dime the church collects is wasted. To say that everything about churches is a scam would also be incorrect. They do do alot of good. Trust me his suit, car and house extension are in there, one way or another.

We had a local megachurch cease donations to a homeless shelter because the head minister lets openly gay people attend the small church service they hold there. Boo Hiss

 
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Sam I am
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quozl wrote:
I read that Rick Warren was so overwhelmed with the success of his book that he and his wife decided to "reverse tithe" and give 90% of is income to help others and live on 10%. I don't know much else about him but I thought that was a good thing.


As of 2006 30 million copies. I wonder what the reverse tithe on that is? He could of kept it all I'm glad he chose to reverse tithe. I am guessing that his bank account is pretty 'phat'.

Of the evangelists out there Warren is one of the few I don't see as a charlatan. He is a devout and thoughful man. I've sited this as an example, could be any church.

There is an interesting parallel between his issue and school funding. If you cut sports, people will vote for the tax increase. Would he be able to raise that money if he said "we are not going to cut out money for food pantries, but we will have to lower the heat and lay off staff." The sinic in me says probably not.

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I'm wondering what the problem is here. His church does good, they don't have as much money.

Is he not supposed to ask his congregation if they can give more? If that's the case, what is he supposed to do?
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Sam I am
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
We had a local megachurch cease donations to a homeless shelter because the head minister lets openly gay people attend the small church service they hold there. Boo Hiss


Our church ceased donations to a particular homeless shelter because that homeless shelter was more interested in creating Baptists than providing for their needs.*

- - - -

*That's a simplification, I admit. But it's not far off the mark.


Why can't those silly christians just get along. soblue
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Sam I am
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Drew1365 wrote:
Sounds like it's going for good purposes, not just helping satellites remain aloft while keeping chandeliers in dog houses burning brightly.


Like I said, he could have announced OTHER cost cutting measures, instead he cited those that tug a parishioner’s hearts the most. In an organization that large the only area they could find to cut is outreach?
 
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rcbevco wrote:


As an atheist I'm praying to invisible non-existent space aliens that NO ONE sends money... Of course the faithfull will cough up and it will be a 'miracle'.




Quote:
I don't know just rambling... what do you guys (and gals) think?


It's clear that you don't agree with this guy, his church or how they use their donations. So I think I'm confused about what you expect here. As others have pointed out, this particular church apparently does the right thing with the donations. From my long observations of churches most members also want to have a nice church and that's part of the reason they donate. Mostly they aren't envious of the church leaders living an affluent lifestyle either. So why would you "pray" that people didn't donate to the church seeing as how the church uses that money in charitable and effective ways?

Do you "pray" that people stop giving money to ACORN? Do you "pray" that even more ACLU donors quit sending in millions? How about the NAACP? There are literally thousands upon thousands of organizations both religious and non-religious who actively seek donations in order to pursue the stated aims of the group. Some of them have executives who are very, very, very well off as a result of their fund-raising and administrative skills... like unions for example.

Do you "pray" that union members revolt and stop paying dues?

Or, being an atheist, are you particularly antagonistic to only Christian groups?
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Sam I am
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Drew1365 wrote:
Well it wasn't "Why aren't they making them Lutherans?" it was more like "Just help those people and quit making them jump through legalistic hoops in order to receive food and shelter!"

I mean, Jesus didn't wait for people to get all shiny-holy before he helped them.

When a homeless shelter says "If you want to stay here, you have to stop being Catholic," or "You can't go out on a date because women will cause you to backslide," Jesus gets pissed.


That is bad juju and a valid reason to switch support to another shelter. I don't think the gay thing was a good reason however.

I've seen you reffer to yourself as a Lutheran I grew up in the Lutheran church (age 0-25). I'm guessing your not AELC... Wisconsin synod? please tell me not Missouri?
 
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DWTripp wrote:


ACORN, ACLU, NAACP?


Those groups do not promise spiritual answers about life and life after death.
If any of those groups stopped following their mission statement because of lack of funding (while keeping ongoing operations funded). I would be antagonistc toward them as well.* Once again why does ANY organization worth supporting use the most popular part as a chopping block to garner donations?

*ie the ACLU stops bringing cases to court because they can't afford it.
 
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rcbevco wrote:
DWTripp wrote:


ACORN, ACLU, NAACP?


Those groups do not promise spiritual answers about life and life after death.



So. The answer is "yes". You are biased particularly against Christian organizations. You're the one making the distinction that something is rotten because the group in question is a church.

I don't see a whole lot of difference between groups who raise money with donation pleas. Or, in some cases (unions) forced donations. They all claim to be in it for the benefit of the public and each claims it exists to protect the individual from something they cannot protect themselves from.

I'm just rambling based on your ramblings. Lots of supposedly public-interest groups cut services long before they cut staff or costs. Sometimes it's because of the infrastructure of the group... you know, leases, contracts, etc. Often it's a decision based on the group's commitment and obligations to it's staff.

I don't see any real difference. but then, it doesn't annoy me that some people believe in God and willingly give money to people who they view as leaders. Sort of like a campaign contribution, eh? Our current president promised the equivalent of what churches do by invoking hope as a spiritual aspect of his candidacy and promising that he would create change from what he portrayed as an evil administration. It's just another facet of the religious experience... except without God. But, he is pretty much a messiah.

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Over all you are correct. I am biased against SOME evangelistsHaggie, Falwell and Robertson come to mind. I realy have nothing in particular against Warren (as I have stated). As far as I can tell he is more of a christian than all of those loud mouths put together, I guess I picked a poor straw man/ example. I just found the whole a thing a little wierd (IMHO), and was looking to see if anyone else did. I don't want to waste vauable RSP time on the topic.

You have cowed me on the issue my good man, toots! modest

PS we at the Fellowship United Church of Krustie Underwear & Obama are using our tithes to hire hitmen to take out conservatives, watch your back Tripp ninja .
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Let's talk about Rick Warren.

His condemnation of the Uganda homosexual death bill, was self serving and mealy mouthed.

He opposed Prop 8, although later he went on Larry King and lied about it.

He likens homosexual marriage to incest and pedophilia.

And the reason I am surprised Tripp is defending Warren? He gave the invocation at Obama's inauguration.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
DWTripp wrote:


ACORN, ACLU, NAACP?


Those groups do not promise spiritual answers about life and life after death.



So. The answer is "yes". You are biased particularly against Christian organizations. You're the one making the distinction that something is rotten because the group in question is a church.

I don't see a whole lot of difference between groups who raise money with donation pleas. Or, in some cases (unions) forced donations. They all claim to be in it for the benefit of the public and each claims it exists to protect the individual from something they cannot protect themselves from.

I'm just rambling based on your ramblings. Lots of supposedly public-interest groups cut services long before they cut staff or costs. Sometimes it's because of the infrastructure of the group... you know, leases, contracts, etc. Often it's a decision based on the group's commitment and obligations to it's staff.

I don't see any real difference. but then, it doesn't annoy me that some people believe in God and willingly give money to people who they view as leaders. Sort of like a campaign contribution, eh? Our current president promised the equivalent of what churches do by invoking hope as a spiritual aspect of his candidacy and promising that he would create change from what he portrayed as an evil administration. It's just another facet of the religious experience... except without God. But, he is pretty much a messiah.




I'll be damned, I'm agreeing with Tripp here.
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Hm...I'm one of the oddballs. I'm a lefty, but I like Rick Warren and say he's doing good work.

Do I agree with everything he says? No. But, like Billy Graham and some other high profile preachers, he seems to do it right. It's not about him, it's about the work.

That's a blessing.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Xlyce wrote:
Let's talk about Rick Warren.


Oh, let's not. It's sure to devolve into lefties congratulating themselves for all hating the same people while conservatives yawn and look at their watches.


What if I don't hate anyone?
 
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Helping poor people is a delicate science. Giving a piece of bread to a hungry person seems indeed like the right thing to do. But is it? Is regularly dumping tons of US-produced grain in Ethiopia the best incentives you can give their troubled agricultural industry?

Should a family get more or less food the more children and less adults it has? What effects do those decisions have on family composition on the lowest levels of society?

Giving out food or shelter means you have a window for "marketing". What to fill it with? Checking who is running from an abusing partner? Who might be receptive for some drug rehab? Checking what education and former trades the clientele has, and where the problems originate? Or tell people about Jesus and praise the lord? Telling them to not use contraceptives and fill their non-existent homes with as many hungry churchgoers as possible?

Social programs all look good, but they can have de facto negative consequences on people's long-term living standards, and this has to be acknowledged, no matter how evil, cynical and hard-at-soul one feels when acknowledging it. In my MA-course "the Economics of Social Problems", we studied the "negative-income-tax" program initiated during the Clinton administration. In short, welfare recipients were told that if they could find a job, no matter how low the pay, the government would add some $ to the hourly wage, in fact subsidizing otherwise rejected labor, rejected helping hands. This bonus was diminished as incomes grew, but the whole system was designed so that it'd always pay off to get extra hours of work, or to get extra pay for those. Apparently, this was a success and led to higher self-sufficiency and confidence in poor neighborhoods, and the program is being studied by social economists worldwide.

I'd rather pay 50% tax and have that money help other people through programs like the one above, through kindergartens so that single-mothers can work, through education of the unemployed - all administrated by a government which employs hundreds of researchers who devote their careers to how to invest money to really help people, give them fishing-nets as well as fish, than having a cold-hand government confine me to voluntarily giving $$$ to amateur-help-workers who might or might not be primarily driven by a need to "look good" in the eyes of society.
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rcbevco wrote:
Just a rant... I remember when that evangelist (Swaggert?) locked himself in a room to trying to raise cash. Claming that if not enough money was raised by so-and-so date God would take him to heaven.


(This was Oral Roberts, who recently got called to heaven after all.)
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Xlyce wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Xlyce wrote:
Let's talk about Rick Warren.


Oh, let's not. It's sure to devolve into lefties congratulating themselves for all hating the same people while conservatives yawn and look at their watches.


What if I don't hate anyone?



What if I'm not wearing a watch?
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Drew1365 wrote:

I'm not sure -- the article says that all the donations from the church members were less than $100, but they raised $2,400,000. So are there really more than 24,000 members of Saddleback Church? That's a lot of people in one church. (And I thought the "megachurch" era was over, anyway.)

Anyway, I hope that it truly gets to the poorest people in their community as stated.


According to World Magazine (Jan 2, 2010) the largest churches in the US are:

Lakewood Church: Houston, pastor Joel Osteen - 43,500 members
LifeChurch.tv: Edmond, OK, pastor Craig Groeschel - 26,776 members
Willow Creek Community Church: South Barrington, Il, pastor Bill Hybels - 23,400 members
North Point Community Church: Alpharetta, GA, pastor Andy Stanley - 23,377 members

Wikipedia states that attendance at Saddleback averages 20,000 a week. I imagine that some folks that don't attend the church would donate as well.

Megachurch is still around but the model is slowly changing.
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Osteen creeps me out. I can't quite put my finger on why....
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Osteen creeps me out. I can't quite put my finger on why....


The Uncanny Valley, I assume. cool



Hooba haba...whaaat?

Edit:
I Googled it. Man the weird shit you RSPer's know. A good list topic? Doesn't Tripp have one that looks like a pig (w/ 'real feal') It would explain Osteen's insincerity.robot
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Osteen creeps me out. I can't quite put my finger on why....


The Uncanny Valley, I assume. cool


For me, it's the creepy smile.
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