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Subject: Artillery bombardment - are defenders detached after attack? rss

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I announce an attack threat across an approach. My opponent has no units in the approach but does have one corps in the defence reserve. He decides to defend and declares a unit in his corps as the sole defender. I anounce the attack is not a feint and the other player reveals his sole defending unit as the lead unit. I now make my attack declaration - a "Unit Move" order to an artillery unit in the attack approach. This is resolved as a bombardment, causing a 1-step loss to the defending unit.

According to the rules, after the combat has been resolved:

"If the attack leading units are artillery, then all pieces for both sides remain in place. The attacking pieces do not move and the defending pieces do not retreat."

The defending unit has to remain in the reserve with the corps but what is its status? Is it still attached to the corps or is it now detached?
 
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Jim Cote
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Defending units are never moved/detached except for those that opt to move into the approach after winning (or a feint attack), or those that retreat. Neither of these actions is technically considered "movement". Units that remain in place are not detached.
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Great, thanks.
 
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Jim Cote
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Conversely, artillery that attack (which is a unit move command) do not change positions, but are still treated as having been moved. Hence they cannot be moved again.
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Geoffrey Ulman
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ekted wrote:
Conversely, artillery that attack (which is a unit move command) do not change positions, but are still treated as having been moved. Hence they cannot be moved again.


I've been wondering about something similar: Are artillery units detached when they make an attack?

The unit move rules state that a Unit Move allows "A single detached unit [to be] moved. If the unit is not already detached, it can be detached as part of this command."

This seems to indicate that a unit move order can only be issued to a detached unit. Thus, the answer would be that the artillery is always detached during an attack.

The only clause which gives me some doubt is in the attack rules which state that "If the attack leading units are artillery, then all pieces for both sides remain in place. The attacking pieces do not move and the defending pieces do not retreat."

In all other cases, unit moves either cause the unit to change position (which necessarily detaches it from its corps) or explicitly detaches it from its corps (in the case of a defender win). The fact that artillery attacks are a special case in this respect makes me want to get clarification (even though the literal reading of the rules above, i.e. that a unit move is always issued to a detached unit, seems to indicate that the artillery is detached even though it does not actually change position; and Bowen's rules are written tightly enough that the literal reading is pretty much, if not always, the right one).
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Jim Cote
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Moving and detaching are two different things. Normally, you detach and move, because there's no reason to detach and remain in place. However, artillery may not attack by corps command. They must make a unit move (or a corps detach move) to attack, and a unit move automatically detaches if the unit is in a corps. This fact, combined with the every-other-turn limitation when the attack is not downhill, makes artillery very tough to use as often and in the places one would like.


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Garry Haggerty
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ekted wrote:
However, artillery may not attack by corps command. They must make a unit move to attack...


That's not correct.

Artillery may lead an attack by using the corps command Detach Move.

They cannot lead an attack by using the corps command Corps Move.
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Garry Haggerty
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ulmangt wrote:
...Are artillery units detached when they make an attack?


They'll always be detached by the end of their attack's resolution, but not necessarily before that.

An artillery unit can only lead an attack if one of the following apply:

a) it's already detached, occupies the attack approach, and the attack command is a Unit Move (independent command), or

b) it belongs to a corps that occupies the attack approach and the attack command is a Detach Move (corps command).

For case (a), two detached artillery units occupying a wide approach can each be issued a Unit Move independent command to make a single, combined attack.

For case (b), two artillery units belonging to the same corps occupying a wide approach can both lead an attack using their corps' single Detach Move corps command.



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Jim Cote
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G Haggerty wrote:
ekted wrote:
However, artillery may not attack by corps command. They must make a unit move to attack...

That's not correct.

Artillery may lead an attack by using the corps command Detach Move.

They cannot lead an attack by using the corps command Corps Move.

Yes, thanks for the clarification. The point I was making is that they become detached as a result of attacking, whether by corps commander or unit commander.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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G Haggerty wrote:
An artillery unit can only lead an attack if one of the following apply:

a) it's already detached, occupies the attack approach, and the attack command is a Unit Move (independent command), or

b) it belongs to a corps that occupies the attack approach and the attack command is a Detach Move (corps command).


One more:

c) it belongs to a corps that occupies the attack approach and the attack command is a Unit Move (the artillery unit detaches itself from the corps).
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Garry Haggerty
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Sphere wrote:
One more:

c) it belongs to a corps that occupies the attack approach and the attack command is a Unit Move (the artillery unit detaches itself from the corps).


Oops! Thanks, George.
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Presumably then the following sequence of events is allowed:

1. I announce an Attack Threat against the defence approach of an enemy occupied locale.

2. My opponent elects not to retreat and names (but does not reveal) his defending units.

3. I declare that the attack is not a feint.

4. My opponent must reveal lead defending units and does so.

5. I make my attack declaration: a "Unit Move" order for an artillery unit currently attached to a friendly corps in the attack approach. This unit is declared the lead attacking unit and turned face up to reveal it is artillery. It is also detached from the corps into the attack approach as part of its move.

6. The attack is resolved and all units involved in the attack remain where they are after the attack. My artillery unit remains detached in the attack locale. If any defending unit was attached to a corps at the start of the attack it remains attached to that corps after the attack unless eliminated.

7. For my next order I announce an "Attach" corps command order to attach the artillery unit to a friendly corps in the attack approach. The artillery unit may attach to the same corps it detached from earlier or a different one, provided the corps is in the same attack approach and is eligible to perform the order.
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Jean-Denis Gill
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NappyPlayer wrote:
Presumably then the following sequence of events is allowed:

1. I announce an Attack Threat against the defence approach of an enemy occupied locale.

2. My opponent elects not to retreat and names (but does not reveal) his defending units.

3. I declare that the attack is not a feint.

4. My opponent must reveal lead defending units and does so.

5. I make my attack declaration: a "Unit Move" order for an artillery unit currently attached to a friendly corps in the attack approach. This unit is declared the lead attacking unit and turned face up to reveal it is artillery. It is also detached from the corps into the attack approach as part of its move.

6. The attack is resolved and all units involved in the attack remain where they are after the attack. My artillery unit remains detached in the attack locale. If any defending unit was attached to a corps at the start of the attack it remain attached to that corps after the attack unless eliminated.

7. For my next order I announce an "Attach" corps command order to attach the artillery unit to a friendly corps in the attack approach. The artillery unit may attach to the same corps it detached from earlier or a different one, provided the corps is in the same attack approach and is eligible to perform the order.


Yes, no problem. Attach it's not a move order.
 
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Peter Asimakis
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Since the defending leading unit loses 1 strength point from the artillery attack,assuming no artillery penalty in the defence approach, does it also lose 1 morale point?(excepting the last morale point).
What I'm asking is are morale points lost if there is no losing army?
eg. 1. Artillery bombardment with strength point loss and no pieces from either side moving.
eg. 2. What about a tactical retreat BEFORE combat.
What defines a losing army?

Sorry to go off topic, but I'm just starting on this wonderful adventure called NT, and I cant grok the morale point rules.

PLB
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Jim Cote
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Pierre Le Bear wrote:
...assuming no artillery penalty in the defence approach...

And a blocked defense approach.

Pierre Le Bear wrote:
What I'm asking is are morale points lost if there is no losing army?

The losing side loses morale, whether it's opposing units, retreat before combat, or artillery.
 
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Peter Asimakis
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Thanks.

PLB.
 
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