Helmut Apel
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Hi there,

i´m new to Wargames, just own "Tide of Iron" which i pimped with selfmade Elements (Trees, Sandbags, Barbed Wire, Hills...) and i like ToI very much. Now i would like to get a Hex and Counter-Game and i´m thinking about "Lock´n Load:BoH" or "Conflict of Heroes". Can anyone tell me the differences or give a little advise about the Pros and Cons?
 
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Chris Montgomery
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Here's a review that compares Tide of Iron to Conflict of Heroes, but beware: the Conflict of Heroes rules have been changed since this review was written. Still, the "flavor" of the game is much the same, even with the new rules.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/352674/comparing-the-inc...

I have not played Lock n Load, but have heard it is a fun, easy to learn hex-and-counter.

Cheers.

Chris
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Wulf Corbett
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You can download & read both sets of rules.

CoH has changed a bit - both old & new sets are here: http://academy-games.com/index.php/rules-a-updates/rule-book...

LnL rules are packaged along with the demos, here: http://www.locknloadgame.com/_store/download.asp?Category=11
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Mike Tosko
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Both are great games, in my opinion, with excellent online support communities and customer service from their creators. Right now, LnL has more options in terms of games, with separate releases covering Vietnam, Somalia, the Falklands, and World War II versions focusing on American, British, and Russian unites going up against the Germans. On the other hand, the recent Storms of Steel release for CoH has some serious tank battles as well as the addition of airplanes. I don't think LnL has air power counters other than helos in the more contemporary battles.

Both have great counters and graphics, though the CoH boards and units are much bigger and thicker, making them easy to maneuver around. Neither game takes up nearly as much table space as ToI!

In terms of game play, CoH is simpler and a little easier to pick up and "get" right out of the box, in my opinion. The CAPS component of CoH (see review referred to by an earlier post-er for details on CAPS if you are unfamiliar) is a pretty unique and very cool feature of the game. LnL in contrast relies on Leader and Hero counters to give their sides that little extra boost that CAPS do in CoH. CoH has the cards feature, where each player normally holds a few that give an extra action to a unit or an auto-rally, something like that. LnL has cards that go with hero counters, which are normally generated during the game, lending an air of unpredictability. CoH uses hidden units pretty extensively, if the players choose to use them, and in 2 player games, it can be a very fun yet simple addition to the game (where are those guys--I know they're out there somewhere--are they in these woods?, etc.). LnL has some built-in events in most scenarios that may be slightly different every time you play (rescuing a downed helicopter in a Vietnam scenario, for example, which you had not planned on doing). I don't see one system as better than the other--just different.

In LnL, battles with tanks that have both machine guns and ordnance going up against infantry can be more complex than the straightforward CoH system, I think. Passengers in armored vehicles are simpler in CoH as well.

If you play solo, CoH may lose more in solo vs.face-to-face play with the use of CAPs, which is really where a lot of the strategic decisions come into play. The use of cards in CoH makes you wonder what cards your opponent is holding before you commit troops to action. The cards are on the table, so to speak, in LnL. Still, I've had a lot of fun with both games solo and there are adaptations that can be made to CoH to help with solo play.

I hope this doesn't confuse more than help, but they are both excellent games, and I don't think you can go wrong with either.
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James Palmer
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When I was given the same choice, I went with Conflict of Heroes, mainly because I like nice bits, and CoH has *very* nice bits. From the sounds of your experience with TOI, you're into it too.
 
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Helmut Apel
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Thank you all very much for your answers

I will get the rules and study for a better understanding. And maybe i check out the LnL-Demo-Game that is available for download.

@Mike: You didn´t confuse me, your detailed explaining is very helpful. And i have to think about that because i will play a lot solo i guess.

@ James: Yeah, you´re right - i like nice bits And yes, CoH does look very nice, but from what i saw LnL has good artwork, too. Only that white Outlines around the Hexes on the LnL:BoH-Boards doesn´t look nice.

My tendencies is to first get CoH now and to get the LnL-Computer-Version when it´s out, looks really great how they transferred it to PC.
 
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James Palmer
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TylerDax wrote:

@ James: Yeah, you´re right - i like nice bits And yes, CoH does look very nice, but from what i saw LnL has good artwork, too. Only that white Outlines around the Hexes on the LnL:BoH-Boards doesn´t look nice.


I could be wrong, but I remember reading that newer LnL games won't have the big white halo. That was a big turn-off for me too, but I think they're addressing it with newer games. I wasn't referring to the artwork though (I like the artwork for both) but more the feel of the components... The map and counters in CoH will feel much more like what you get in ToI, whereas LOL has non-mounted map and thin cardboard counters. It's something that most hex-and-counter wargamers are used to though, but CoH goes above and beyond what most wargamers are used to playing with.
 
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uwe eickert
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Herbert,
Mark Walker and I do a lot of shows together, where we share a booth and help each other with sales. He has a great company, with great games. You cannot go wrong with the LnL series!
Uwe
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Mike Tosko
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A few more quick points:

I am pretty sure, as another post mentioned here, that Mark fixed the white line issue awhile back, and new maps don't have them (truth be told, I never even noticed it).

LnL has Spotting rules, wherein even if a unit is in LOS, if not in open terrain you may not be able to spot it and fire at it right away (say if it's in a building or woods). You may have to wait for it to move or fire, or else attempt to spot it with your own units before firing. I think this helps in solo play, making another variable.

On the other hand, I was going through the rules again last night for LnL, and there is definitely more complexity there. For example, when firing at a tank, you may have to consider not just front or flank attacks (as in CoH also), but whether a shot might hit the turret. There is a greater level of detail and perhaps realism, but it is more time-consuming and for a fairly new gamer, can be a bit confusing.

I have Awakening the Bear on my table now, but Band of Heroes waiting on the side (and Storms of Steel underneath that).

Anyway--you can't go wrong either way!
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Helmut Apel
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@Uwe: I find it cool that you - as the Developer of CoH - recommend LnL, very fair Btw, do you have german roots because your Name does sound very much like that?

@Mike: I saw about the Spotting in watching the Gameplay-Example at the LnL-Website. The Fact that a Tank has more ddifferent hitzones sounds interessting, too. I didn´t make a decision right now, still have to study the manuals. In two weeks is my Birthday and then i will get either CoH or LnL as a present for myself

About LnL, what would be the best title of the series to start with, "Band of Heroes"? I find "Heroes of the Blitzkrieg" very interessting, too.
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uwe eickert
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Helmut,
Ja, ich bin Deutscher abstammung und bin in Südamerika und Puerto Rico aufgewachsen. Meine Kinder sind auch noch Deutsche Staatsbürger.

Viele Grüße aus Ohio.
Uwe

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Jan-Willem Schmidt
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For your hex and counters, also check Valor & Victory. It's a free print&play with easy to learn rules.

When you own CoH or LnL you probably will play this less (I know I do), but Valor and Victory is a lot of fun.
 
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Helmut Apel
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@Jan-Willem: Thank you for the hint, i´ll check it out.

@Uwe: Oh in Südamerika aufgewachsen, das klingt interessant. Ich wünsche Dir alles Gute für deine Company und Deine zukünftigen Projekte - ich finde es toll dass Du als Entwickler so präsent für die Fans bist. Viele Grüße aus Darmstadt (kurz vor Frankfurt).

Ok which would be the best Part to start with CoH - AtB or SoS ? I know both Products are Stand-Alones. But i heard that SoS has some Rules- and Counterimprovements - and i like the Idea with the Planes. Or does it make more sense to start with AtB to get into the CoH-System? And is SoS much more focused on TankBattles or is there Infantry-Firefights, too?

I hope i don´t ask to much but i´m close to my decision now to get CoH first and then LnL:Heroes of Stalingrad later when it´s out.

 
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Jan-Willem Schmidt
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I Like Storms of Steel better. The components look better and the story for the firefights are more appealling IMHO.

Lots of infantry firefights, and later tanks and planes are introduced.
 
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Mike Tosko
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I'll let Uwe say what he thinks about which CoH game to start with. SoS has revised rules, but you could still download them off of the Academy Games web site and use them with AtB. AtB is probably a little simpler--no air rules, for example, though those are simple.

As for which LnL game would be best to start with, I would say go with the game that interests you the most. They all seem to start out with simpler, smaller scenarios, and progress to larger and more complex ones. I have not played Heroes of the Blitzkrieg, so can't speak to that, but Band of Heroes would definitely be a good one to start with.
 
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Stoodster
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Have you considered Combat Commander: Europe? I'm new to wargames as well, but it's a really great game. I played Tide of Iron for a while and then got Conflict of Heroes, both of which are also good games. Only recently have I started playing CC:E. It adds a random event element that leads to great story telling and a lot of fun. If you haven't already, you might want to consider it. But whichever decision you make, you'll have a lot of fun as these are all good games.

 
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