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Subject: Gamephotos, Galleries & GeekGold - time for change? rss

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Sven
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So - Gamephotos has left because he's fed up with the sheer ammount of bad pictures drowning out the small ammount of quality pictures. At least that's how I understood his goodbye-thread.
In this thread, I will not comment on his decision to pack up and leave and ask everybody to do the same.

What I am wondering is: Are we going to take this as a signal to change a few things? Let's be honest: 80% of the pictures on this site just plain suck, are redundant, are neither informative nor funny etc. Many galleries are just swamped by duplicates and mediocre or plain bad images. And if I remember correctly, Gamephotos pointed this out multiple times, made suggestions and even offered help. Nothing has come of that, as far as I know.
So what are the other users opinions on this? What changes would you like to see and what do you think would help the situation? Have the admins any plans up their sleeves?

Personaly, I blame most of the problems on GeekGold:
For many users, uploading pictures is the easiest way to get GeekGold. They upload lots of crappy images and don't really care about it - they just want an avatar. It is obvious how this will frustrate users who really care about the pictures and actualy put work into taking good ones.
To aggrevate this problem, you even get GeekGold for modding. Again, this seems like the wrong motivation to moderate content.

From my point of view, GeekGold has lost it's usefulness. In the early days of this site, it helped to signify the contibutors and was very hard to get. These days, there is so much of it around, that as a Newbie I just have to post "Avatar please?" and I'll propably get my 30 GG in a day or two.
What is left of GG, is that it lures users to contribute - and I mean that in a bad way. You don't care about taking pictures? Hate to write a review? Couldn't care less about session reports? Doesn't matter - just write one to get GG.
To make a long story short: IMO, GeekGold promotes spamming. Maybe it's time to get rid of it or change the way it is handed out and used?
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Chun Ping
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totally agree. while geekmodding, i'm always frustrated by so many "modder" who simply vote yes even if the picture is duplicate or badly taken. I feel that if it's personal gaming session photos, those should be in the user gallery, not in the game gallery. but as much as i dislike what's happening now, i dont know what can be done to help. perhaps by having no GG to modder who approve?
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I thought of posting exactly (well, more or less) the same post for a couple of days!

YES.

"Money" is followed by greed. It destroys any community`s integrity.

Let the thumbs rule.

For every uploaded picture you get - NOTHING.

If it is good, you will see some thumbing.

Avatar, microbadges, etc. could be purchased with - THUMBS. So you should add some valuable content. Period.

To be honest - maybe it would be even better, if all these "purchases" would be for free (as they are in other many forums - you can just upload a pic associated with your person).

This whole "exchange" into real money thing is not "great", but nuts.

This site is not a database & community anymore, but a database, a community, a commercial product, a marketplace, and a "hype" by its own.

I understand the runners want "more", but they should think about something you can learn by looking at all of our history: straight "line up" development is followed by crashs, again and again, if somethings natural, healthy "steady state" is not being considered. IMO, BGG should "come down" and keep, what it is. There is too much "self-referential" stuff here. It is like a vicious circle or spiral. It is made up, as if its only purpose would be to keep people here and spend more time. More people, more time - more money.

Users leaving the site because of this. They feel, that this is not their "project" anymore.

This happens to many "movements" growing and eventually becoming a kind of multi-national company (say, Greenpeace).

The fact, that many suggestions to improve the quality of the content or the quality of managing it are just ignored (no response at all), is a bad sign, IMO, and things happening in 2007 (the banning, the related discussions about "Aldie`s site" vs. "we are a community" and more ...) were a turning point ("dipdragon" left exactly because of that).

The worst part is (having a look at gamephotos` last thread) how criticism is by many users taken as an invitation to bash the critic (easy and satisfying, isn`t it?), instead of thinking about his opinions and suggestions.

It is the pure stupidity and aggression of this, which is polluting this site even more.
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Sven
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duchamp wrote:
The worst part is (having a look at gamephotos` last thread) how criticism is by many users taken as an invitation to bash the critic (easy and satisfying, isn`t it?), instead of thinking about his opinions and suggestions.

nsolitander wrote:
 

QED

Let's just put on a smile and act like nothing has happened and ignore all the discussions about the subject, that have happenend in the past. Is that what you are suggesting Nico?
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Maarten D. de Jong
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Tanakor wrote:
Personaly, I blame most of the problems on GeekGold:
For many users, uploading pictures is the easiest way to get GeekGold. They upload lots of crappy images and don't really care about it - they just want an avatar. It is obvious how this will frustrate users who really care about the pictures and actualy put work into taking good ones. To aggrevate this problem, you even get GeekGold for modding. Again, this seems like the wrong motivation to moderate content.

This discussion already cropped up in 2007, and probably a few times before that. See here for what I considered to be the Root of All Evil, and how others responded. It's well over two years ago that that discussion took place, and little has changed since then, save for a greater emphasis on and appreciation for bling-bling content. Draw your own conclusions.
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Maarten D. de Jong
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duchamp wrote:
It is the pure stupidity and aggression of this, which is polluting this site even more.

I find that the less you care, the more it ceases to be a problem. There are many heated debates, polls and what-not which I just don't notice simply because I focus on the game aspect of this site: reviews, my experiences and those of others, rules questions, perhaps a few images and session reports. There is, I think, a strong correlation between frustration and emotional outbursts on the one side, and amount of passion gone into contributing on the other. The higher one flies, the harder one falls.
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Joe Kundlak
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I agree that removing the GeekGold compensation for GeekModding images would be a nice idea. Other content may retain its GG compensation in GeekMod, as it is nowhere as numerous as the images.
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Tanakor wrote:
So - Gamephotos has left because he's fed up with the sheer amount of bad pictures drowning out the small ammount of quality pictures. ...
(snip)

What I am wondering is: Are we going to take this as a signal to change a few things? Let's be honest: 80% of the pictures on this site just plain suck, are redundant, are neither informative nor funny etc. Many galleries are just swamped by duplicates and mediocre or plain bad images. ...
(snip)

So what are the other users opinions on this? What changes would you like to see and what do you think would help the situation? Have the admins any plans up their sleeves?

Well, I agree with you that the GeekGold/Thumb system has flaws. But I don't agree with your (and other users') beef with the photo galleries on this site and that the majority of photos is bad. Granted I'm not that interested in photos of a game, but rather interested in playing the game. I just don't see much value in artistic photos, other than they are nice to look at - once. It would also never occur to me to open a game gallery and getting enraged over blurry photos, for example. And why should I? If I want to see photos of the components of a game I go, for example, to the Settlers page, scroll to the Image gallery and click on 'Game' and 'Hot' and get pics of the game, without most of the creative content (meeples of various kinds, for example) or with people in play. Sure there are some exceptions, but so what? The 'bad' photos will be at the end of the 38 pages, because they didn't gather any thumbs. And the thing that makes them bad are really a change of technology, rather than people wanting to hoard useless GeekGold, because they have been taken in 2002 or 2003. Back then I didn't even have a digicam!

My point is: what do you and other other vocal photography loving geeks care, if at the pages 67-78 of the Settlers photos there are some blurry and redundant shots? Who are you or someone else to decide what is redundant anyway? Maybe the photos were used in a review or a GL, so why should they be deleted? And if you want to delete redundant photos, why not also delete redundant threads, which clutter forum searches and often don't make any sense anymore, because users deleted their content over time? I simply cannot imagine anyone going through any of the picture galleries, groaning in physical pain because of the bad quality of pictures, which, most likely, that person only encountered after searching a vast amount of good or acceptable photos beforehand!

My only beef with the picture system is not about the quality, but about the stupidity of uploading each and every counter sheet or meeple or - especially - card from a game. Now THAT is annoying and counter-productive, but it is also prohibited, I think. So in principle you can just contact an admin and he might take care of it, once he finds the time to do it.

Also from the multiple threads with titles like "What were the modders thinking?!" with people complaining that their picture got declined and the fact that you get 0.01 for approval and 0.1 (correct?)for declining a picture, I think modding has already improved, strengthening your call for higher quality pictures.
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nsolitander wrote:
No - I was just trying to make something productive/creative out of the situation. As you recall it was the lack of creative input to BGG that was the beef of the artist in question.

And, no, a smile does not hurt even in grave moments such as these - I'll wear mine with pride.

To call a discussion "a storm in a tea cup" to me means, that it is superfluous and a waste of time. I am sorry, if you didn't want to imply that.
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Not that all agree with Gamephoto's decision, but I think the best that can be done is to take the point he's done – because I'm with Gamephoto's on the opinion of the galleries.

I basically NEVER use the galleries – when I have to, because I want a shot of the board or some components, I always have to wade through tons of crap, and it's frustrating to see the sorting isn't respected at all – sure, most of it is my "sense of order" that gets disturbed, but it's actually a question of useability.

"Pictures should never be deleted from BGG on the discretion of the image admins" is the admins' decision. Fine. However, I do think some gallery sorting could do it.

The current "game", "people", "creative" is one step in the right direction, but more can be done. For example:

* An easy button click to mark an already posted picture as "This is in the wrong gallery!" or "This isn't even for the game!"
* A similarily easy way to mark an already posted picture as "This picture is now redundant – there is a better pic of the same thing in the galleries" – this is virtually only applicable to the "Game" gallery Redundant pics would not be deleted, but moved from the "game" gallery to some "archive" gallery.

The "game" gallery could require tags for the shots, indicating what it is (Game box, components, board, whatnot), publisher and year. Or something.

The "creative" gallery could use sub-divisions like "painted minis", "home-made components" and "artistic shots" or something, if people would like to sort that.

We don't have to make this huge pic sorting again – just create the possibilities and I think the most frequented games will be sorted by the users who want the galleries to be useful.
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BPRD wrote:
I just don't see much value in artistic photos, other than they are nice to look at - once. It would also never occur to me to open a game gallery and getting enraged over blurry photos, for example. And why should I?

I am not talking about artistic shots either. I am talking about uploadung photos that actualy contribute something and are worth looking at. I am not even talking about the question, if people- or cat-photos should be allowed or not. I just want pictures to be more or less in focus and generaly informative.
Quote:
The 'bad' photos will be at the end of the 38 pages, because they didn't gather any thumbs. And the thing that makes them bad are really a change of technology, rather than people wanting to hoard useless GeekGold, because they have been taken in 2002 or 2003. Back then I didn't even have a digicam!

My point is: what do you and other other vocal photography loving geeks care, if at the pages 67-78 of the Settlers photos there are some blurry and redundant shots?

Yes - and that's the point! Which game really warrants 78 pages of pictures? Nobody needs these, nobody really looks at most of them at all and yet they clog up the gallery. Please remember, that the galleries are not sorted the way you are refering to by default.

And why are there so many pictures? Because people want GeekGold. And I can't blame them - everybody wants an avatar and possibly some shiny microbadges. But this system clearly encourages people to contribute quantity first, quality second.
Quote:
Who are you or someone else to decide what is redundant anyway? Maybe the photos were used in a review or a GL, so why should they be deleted?

I am NOT talking about deleting anything! I just think, that we should reduce the ammount if pictures in the future and I could think of a system, that "fades out" pictures, that are old and not highly regarded.
Also there is nothing you can say against a blurry picture if it shows something new. If a game is new and has no picture at all, a blury shot from a Con, done with the cam in your cellphone, is a great thing. But if there are already 200 shots in the gallery - why do I need a nother picture of the same components *and* the shot is blury?

Quote:
My only beef with the picture system is not about the quality, but about the stupidity of uploading each and every counter sheet or meeple or - especially - card from a game. Now THAT is annoying and counter-productive, but it is also prohibited, I think. So in principle you can just contact an admin and he might take care of it, once he finds the time to do it.

Agree.
But I could use the same argument you used above: If you sort by Hotness, than these shots won't normaly be on the first pages. So why bother?
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Erik Balgård
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so perhaps the solution is to sort by hotness by default?

Edit: This coupled with buttons to flag bad fotos as such and prehaps basing GG rewards for pictures on the thumbs they get instead of just rewarding the upload would go a long way to fixing this and would not be that hard to implement.
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Maarten D. de Jong
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Zimeon wrote:
I basically NEVER use the galleries - when I have to, because I want a shot of the board or some components, I always have to wade through tons of crap, and it's frustrating to see the sorting isn't respected at all - sure, most of it is my "sense of order" that gets disturbed, but it's actually a question of useability.

Okay. But let's start at the beginning then: how often do you need an image, and for what do you need it?

My point is: it is all and well to provide solutions, but I'm not sure I understand the question. For example, I just posed myself the question: what do the components of Brass look like? I don't own Brass, have never played it nor seen it up close. I bring up Brass's image gallery, select Components in the drop-down box, and arrive here. On page 2, I see the following image from Dan Allbaugh:



which, photographically speaking, is a lousy shot due to flash glare. But it does give me an idea already. On page 3, Isaac Berkisto presents me with this image:



which is more storage solution than components, and it's fuzzy due to the lense not being able to focus properly on the flat box surfaces, but still, I get an idea. On page 4, James Hamilton took this shot:



which shows me some cards. There's a minor DOF issue on the side rows, and it could do with more light, but still, it gives me an idea. Actually typing all this took far longer than clicking through the gallery, but it wasn't more than half a minute of browsing. So how is that 'wading trough tons of crap'? Do you expect to have everything turn out razor sharp and clear and well-lighted? (I need a good wide-angle lense for that, a good camera body, a bunch of good and strong lamps to provide indirect light, and a tripod. And of course room to put them all in.) To clarify: I am not trying to be patronising, I am trying to get, pardon the expression, a clear image of what it is you find so problematic. Can you perhaps point to another site which offers a system which suits your needs better?
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If the game galleries would be sorted by default "game" and "hot" any passer-by user who is looking for some info about the game without even KNOWING how to use the different filters and stuff on this "passer-by user unfriendly" site, he would see this on the first page:

http://boardgamegeek.com/images/boardgame/28720/brass?userna...
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cymric wrote:
My point is: it is all and well to provide solutions, but I'm not sure I understand the question. For example, I just posed myself the question: what do the components of Brass look like? I don't own Brass, have never played it nor seen it up close. I bring up Brass's image gallery, select Components in the drop-down box, and arrive here.

Fair enough, I have never had super-trouble finding shots of what I need. As said, it's mostly just a case of ligth OCD… "put the things in order!" However, some galleries are pretty useless for browsing purposes. Then again, perhaps that's not what they're for.
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duchamp wrote:
If the game galleries would be sorted by default "game" and "hot" any passer-by user who is looking for some info about the game without even KNOWING how to use the different filters and stuff on this "passer-by user unfriendly" site, he would see this on the first page:

That's not a bad gallery to start off with. But I'm not sure about your point: do you think it's good? bad? I cannot tell from your reply, would you mind explaining a little more?

In any case, you mention a problem with a simple solution to aid passer-by users which takes almost no effort whatsoever to be instated. Good call.
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duchamp wrote:
If the game galleries would be sorted by default "game" and "hot" any passer-by user who is looking for some info about the game without even KNOWING how to use the different filters and stuff on this "passer-by user unfriendly" site, he would see this on the first page:

http://boardgamegeek.com/images/boardgame/28720/brass?userna...

This way would be one of the best solutions with the current system indeed.

Of course you can never avoid hot thumbers, who swarm on an irrelevant picture just to get it to the top, but such games are a minority I guess.
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cymric wrote:
On page 2, I see the following image from Dan Allbaugh:



which, photographically speaking, is a lousy shot due to flash glare. But it does give me an idea already.


Just to make clear, that I am not a "photography-Nazi":
This, in my book, is a good shot of the game components (and I am apaled that I was the first to thump it). It shows what you get when you open the box, the pieces are nicely arranged and you get a good impression of the game. Yes, focus could be better, the glare is annoying but it achieves what the photographer wanted to do: Show what's in the box.
So why didn't this get even one thumb and only appears near the end of the second page? Well obviously, a big part of the gallery is wrongly categorized: Most of the first page should be under creative, not components.
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cymric wrote:
But I'm not sure about your point: do you think it's good? bad? I cannot tell from your reply, would you mind explaining a little more?

A good point to start at.
Nonetheless, as the OP suggested, it is very important IMO for Aldie and Derk to think over the whole process and - mining aspect of the whole site.
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Tanakor wrote:
BPRD wrote:
I just don't see much value in artistic photos, other than they are nice to look at - once. It would also never occur to me to open a game gallery and getting enraged over blurry photos, for example. And why should I?


I am not talking about artistic shots either. I am talking about uploadung photos that actualy contribute something and are worth looking at.


First a disclaimer - I like photos on this site (to quote your post, I consider myself a 'photography loving geek') - be they creative or components or the super-loathed people category. I like good pictures - thus sometimes I'm surprised that shit pictures of scantly-clad women get 200 thumbs up while the same shots but more in focus and better lighting of scantly clad overweight gamers get none... I have, however, no 'problem sorting pictures by 'hotness' - it takes very little of my precious time, as does going through one page or two... but as said I like looking at images.

The 'problem' stated in this thread and originally by gamephotos isn't geekgold - rather it is some of the words written above in the quotations: "actually contributing" "actually worth looking at" and "value" - well who is to decide that? What is 'actually' worth looking at? Today that is decided by a majority vote of some sort - referred to as moderation. Now some of the members of the community obviously aren't content with what the community has chosen to label as 'worth looking at' - the 'problem' I have with gamephoto's (and to an extent yours) stance is that we are to believe there's an objective measurement of gold versus catpiss. But how is this to be decided? By a triumvirate of photographic experts chaired by an esteemed egotickler-extraordinaire? It's pretty clear that what would transpire is that in the end what would be required of the photographers is not snapshots of games but a degree in photography...

Until the day when our esteemed leader says that the servers are filled up - we have no problem outside our own little teacups - don't get me wrong I like to engage in these discussions as much as the next egocentric geek...

Geekgold is in my view, plain silly and it doesn't spur me on (I'm a cyber-communalist) - but it's better than thumbs because you can give more than one for those contributions that tickle your fancy.
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duchamp wrote:
If the game galleries would be sorted by default "game" and "hot" any passer-by user who is looking for some info about the game without even KNOWING how to use the different filters and stuff on this "passer-by user unfriendly" site, he would see this on the first page:

http://boardgamegeek.com/images/boardgame/28720/brass?userna...


It has been scientifically proven that most males scavenge the net for nudity or even a glimpse of it if it's a site about e.g. baking or boardgames - thus it is representative that what we see is more something like this:

http://boardgamegeek.com/images/thing/29368/last-night-on-ea...

...because frankly those thumbed images say a lot about this community, and we shouldn't try to hide it if we're not prepared to change individually (and not by the command of a master), but we won't because if we like it or not BGG will slowly turn into the society that it mirrors...
 
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If somebody wants to see, what BGG is showing him about Chess, he would see these "hot of all":

http://boardgamegeek.com/images/thing/171/chess?username=&so...

or "hot of game":
http://boardgamegeek.com/images/thing/171/chess?username=&so...

I`d prefer the second at first sight. Interesting, that there is not a single "game" photo on the first page of "all hot" images.

I don`t care at all about "scientifically proven" anything. It is a question of what we think is more appropriate.
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Tanakor wrote:
nsolitander wrote:
No - I was just trying to make something productive/creative out of the situation. As you recall it was the lack of creative input to BGG that was the beef of the artist in question.

And, no, a smile does not hurt even in grave moments such as these - I'll wear mine with pride.

To call a discussion "a storm in a tea cup" to me means, that it is superfluous and a waste of time. I am sorry, if you didn't want to imply that.


That's not what it means - it means "a small event that has been exaggerated out of proportion" - I think it fits, in the grand scheme of it all. Ranks just below the GG-inflation alarmists...
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duchamp wrote:
It is a question of what we think is more appropriate.

So very true.

There's a difference between what we think is a "good shot to represent the game" and what we think is a "picture I wanna thumb". At least, there is a large difference in that for ME, so I pretty much can guess it's so for a lot of other people too.

What images are best to represent the game isn't something that GeekMod + thumbs will achieve.
 
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