Vince Lupo
United States
ALEXANDRIA
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Treasury and Lighthouse were added to dominion with the Seaside expansion.

Treasury goes back on top of your deck if you didn't buy a victory card that turn.

Lighthouse stays on the table a turn and blocks attacks until your next turn.

Moat blocks attacks if in your hand when you're attacked.


So, the interesting bit is: each treasury takes up a spot in your hand every turn that could be a defending moat. For example, if you played 3 treasuries this turn and didn't buy a vp card. Then you'd place them on your deck. Next you'd draw your 5 cards, with 3 of them being a treasury. Then somebody attacks you on their turn. It didn't help you much that a moat was your next card.

Morale of the story? Dominion is quite an interesting game. Don't forget to look for possibly unforeseen consequences.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B C Z
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lighthouse is drawn into hand "N-1" and, if played, protects hand "N"

Moat is drawn into hand "N" and protects hand "N" assuming you always show it).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
byronczimmer wrote:
Lighthouse is drawn into hand "N-1" and, if played, protects hand "N"

Moat is drawn into hand "N" and protects hand "N" assuming you always show it).


The point is that you can play Treasury, draw Lighthouse, and then play Lighthouse to protect you as if it had been in your hand from the start. The same is not true of Moat, since a Moat drawn via Treasury is just a weaker Smithy.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig Groff-Folsom
United States
Grand Rapids
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One of the playgroups I play Dominion with is very anti-Attack. They use Attack cards occasionally, but tend to ensure there's always a Moat. When Intrigue came out, they began to veto Swindlers and Saboteurs (too nasty), and they weren't very impressed with the alternate Reaction of Secret Chamber.

After Seaside, the group was picking a set of ten to play with. Someone grabbed Militia, and someone else instinctively grabbed Moat. I pointed out that they should pick Lighthouse instead. Ever since that game, no one really cares about Moat anymore.

The Lighthouse is much more popular now because:
- you don't have to remember to show it
- it doesn't take up a spot in your hand (while it's protecting you)
- you don't have to use your action to play it
- even without attacks, +1 coin for two turns is a pretty attractive option for the low cost of 2

Now, with that said, it's easy to presume that Moat might be so inferior that it's a "dead" card. On the other hand, Moat doesn't *have* to be revealed, even when it's remembered. If you want to flush your hand to a Minion, for example, you're certainly welcome to it. Holding a Library when your opponent plays Militia or Torturer? Discard away. Alternately, want to gain a Curse in your hand to fuel your Trading Post or serve as the second trashed card to a Steward? Go ahead. It's a delicate balance, but sometimes the Attack cards work in your favor.

It's just another beautiful nuance to an awesome game.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vince Lupo
United States
ALEXANDRIA
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
salty53 wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Lighthouse is drawn into hand "N-1" and, if played, protects hand "N"

Moat is drawn into hand "N" and protects hand "N" assuming you always show it).


The point is that you can play Treasury, draw Lighthouse, and then play Lighthouse to protect you as if it had been in your hand from the start. The same is not true of Moat, since a Moat drawn via Treasury is just a weaker Smithy.


Exactly. Or more to the point that treasuries can stop you from being able to have the moat in your hand as often.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drew Spencer
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dave41fan wrote:
Now, with that said, it's easy to presume that Moat might be so inferior that it's a "dead" card. On the other hand, Moat doesn't *have* to be revealed, even when it's remembered. If you want to flush your hand to a Minion, for example, you're certainly welcome to it. Holding a Library when your opponent plays Militia or Torturer? Discard away. Alternately, want to gain a Curse in your hand to fuel your Trading Post or serve as the second trashed card to a Steward? Go ahead. It's a delicate balance, but sometimes the Attack cards work in your favor.


Moat also may be kept secret until revealed. If I have one action left and I have to choose between playing a Thief or something else and I see the Lighthouse out there, the choice is obvious. On the other hand, if there just might be a Moat in the person's hand, then I might take the risk, and I might lose.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
It's definitely unfair to say that Moat is dead thanks to Lighthouse. On top of the ability to allow attacks through if you find them useful and the secrecy factor, the +2 Cards ability can in a +2 Actions-heavy board be much more useful than the +1 Coins,+1 Coins ability of Lighthouse. And let's not forget that, if you're playing with all 78 cards, you usually won't see the two of them come up together anyhow.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wolfe
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Zendo fan, Columbus Blue Jackets fan, Dominion Fan.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, Moat is optional. Someone once used Ambassador with a card that I would've preferred to have. D'oh! Lighthouse was in play. No card for me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vince Lupo
United States
ALEXANDRIA
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes. Of course. Moat is not useless. In fact, every card in the game has at least one useful purpose or another. Depends on the situation. Some are more often useful than others though. For example, Village is a very useful card most of the time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Branko K.
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Dave41fan wrote:
One of the playgroups I play Dominion with is very anti-Attack. They use Attack cards occasionally, but tend to ensure there's always a Moat.


I would say it's easier not to use Attack cards at all. That way you will be playing sets with 10 cards, not 10 minus the number of Attack cards noone will use minus Moat that serves no purpose since noone uses Attack cards.

Also, finding creative ways to "defend" from attacks when there's no Moat is one of the most interesting gameplay features Dominion has to offer. It's sad when the playgroup doesn't even want to explore that facet simply because they hate competitive behaviour.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave G
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
El Chupacabratwurst
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
baba44713 wrote:
Dave41fan wrote:
One of the playgroups I play Dominion with is very anti-Attack. They use Attack cards occasionally, but tend to ensure there's always a Moat.


I would say it's easier not to use Attack cards at all. That way you will be playing sets with 10 cards, not 10 minus the number of Attack cards noone will use minus Moat that serves no purpose since noone uses Attack cards.

Also, finding creative ways to "defend" from attacks when there's no Moat is one of the most interesting gameplay features Dominion has to offer. It's sad when the playgroup doesn't even want to explore that facet simply because they hate competitive behaviour.




I really don't understand the desire to play games but not compete. I don't just play to win. I play to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women. And I expect my opponents to play with similar dedication. Otherwise what's the point?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Schaeffer
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
baba44713 wrote:
Also, finding creative ways to "defend" from attacks when there's no Moat is one of the most interesting gameplay features Dominion has to offer. It's sad when the playgroup doesn't even want to explore that facet simply because they hate competitive behaviour.


This.

Some of the most interesting Dominion games I have had involved having to revamp or discard "tried and true" strategies because of the presence of disruptive attack cards.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vince Lupo
United States
ALEXANDRIA
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
baba44713 wrote:
Dave41fan wrote:
One of the playgroups I play Dominion with is very anti-Attack. They use Attack cards occasionally, but tend to ensure there's always a Moat.


I would say it's easier not to use Attack cards at all. That way you will be playing sets with 10 cards, not 10 minus the number of Attack cards noone will use minus Moat that serves no purpose since noone uses Attack cards.

Also, finding creative ways to "defend" from attacks when there's no Moat is one of the most interesting gameplay features Dominion has to offer. It's sad when the playgroup doesn't even want to explore that facet simply because they hate competitive behaviour.




Agreed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vince Lupo
United States
ALEXANDRIA
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Golux13 wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
Also, finding creative ways to "defend" from attacks when there's no Moat is one of the most interesting gameplay features Dominion has to offer. It's sad when the playgroup doesn't even want to explore that facet simply because they hate competitive behaviour.


This.

Some of the most interesting Dominion games I have had involved having to revamp or discard "tried and true" strategies because of the presence of disruptive attack cards.


Like thief or pirate vs a player who usually gets lots of money. Suddenly it makes more sense to get action cards with money.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Federico Desilets
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Dave41fan wrote:
they weren't very impressed with the alternate Reaction of Secret Chamber.


In most games Ive played, I prefer secret chamber to both moat and lighthouse for a couple reasons:

1.) It helps maximize your hand and place cards back on your deck that you want things like thief, swindler, etc. to target. As well as keeping victory cards out of your hand from bureaucrat.

2.) It is by far the best of the three reactions against militia as drawing two then putting two back can ensure you discard victory cards from it more often.

3.) With many decks (specifically high draw and garden decks,) the ability on it is actually pretty useful. If you are going any sort of smithy/festival/lab/market/etc. combinations and secret chamber is available buying at least one is a must, similar to if cellar was available (but obviously not as good as cellar in this instance.)

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vince Lupo
United States
ALEXANDRIA
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dcrico20 wrote:
Dave41fan wrote:
they weren't very impressed with the alternate Reaction of Secret Chamber.


In most games Ive played, I prefer secret chamber to both moat and lighthouse for a couple reasons:

1.) It helps maximize your hand and place cards back on your deck that you want things like thief, swindler, etc. to target. As well as keeping victory cards out of your hand from bureaucrat.

2.) It is by far the best of the three reactions against militia as drawing two then putting two back can ensure you discard victory cards from it more often.

3.) With many decks (specifically high draw and garden decks,) the ability on it is actually pretty useful. If you are going any sort of smithy/festival/lab/market/etc. combinations and secret chamber is available buying at least one is a must, similar to if cellar was available (but obviously not as good as cellar in this instance.)




I love secret chamber, especially against specific attacks (thief and pirate ship) but you mentioned some attacks (bureaucrat and militia) that I feel it doesn't help you as much with. I think of Secret Chamber a little bit like a reaction based haven. In other words, you can sometimes be allowed to save a card for next turn/draw with it. And of course, being able to change the top of your deck before an attack messes with that part of your deck is nice.

My point is, sometimes with secret chamber you can't really stop the attack from hurting you even if you can change your hand up a little. It's nice and in some situations, better than a moat, but it's not always useful. Lighthouse is a nice mix moat alternative. Always useful.

I wonder if they'll make any attacks that destroy duration cards in play, or even duration based attacks! Attacks that hurt two turns in a row!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brendon Faithfull
United States
Overland Park
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Secret Chamber is great versus Militia. Who doesn't want to discard victory cards anyways? If you're being forced to do it, then you might as well maximize.

I also love the fact that Secret Chamber can put itself on top of your deck. It really is a superior reaction to most cards. (Exception: Torturer, just give me the friggin' moat for that guy)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.