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Subject: The Pedantic Wargamer rss

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Confusion Under Fire
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I am a cardboard unit in a tactical wargame.

Pedantic moment #1
My movement is from the centre of one hex to the centre of an adjacent hex.
I am currently in a woods hex, I move to the edge of this hex and into the centre of an open hex, it costs me 1 movement point to do this. I return back to the woods hex at the exact same pace and follow the exact same route yet it costs me 2 movement points....Why oh why does it take me twice as long to complete the same journey?

Pedantic moment #2

Here is a section of a map, the white hexes are low level, the yellow hexes are a level one hill.


"A" is my unit and "B" is the enemy unit with the hill in between us. Most LOS rules will allow both my unit and the enemy unit to see each hex of the hill but not each other. In order for both units to see every hex of the hill that hill must be at a lower height then both units and therefore allow the 2 units to see each other. Try drawing the hill so that both units can see every hex of the hill but not each other, it's impossible!

Pedantic moment over
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Le-Roy Karunaratne
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#1. I assume that is because it takes two 'time' to move into woods and set up firing positions and conceal yourself. In an open hex it is just the time to move into the position. There is no cover, so no time is spent setting up. I do understand that you are being sarcastic. But I like to find reason everywhere

#2. I simply don't understand what you are saying. B should not be able to see the hill hexes adjacent to A and vice versa. However, if the hill was one hex wide then both units could see the top of the hill but not each other.
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Todd Pytel
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#1 - Assuming you're entering an area cautiously, watching for enemy movements, it's faster going from rough terrain to open terrain than the other way around even if you take the same path. (But mostly, this system is just the easier one to use.)

whatambush wrote:

Here is a section of a map, the white hexes are low level, the yellow hexes are a level one hill.


"A" is my unit and "B" is the enemy unit with the hill in between us. Most LOS rules will allow both my unit and the enemy unit to see each hex of the hill but not each other.

Huh? I haven't played every tactical game out there, but the standard "layer cake" model as practiced by ASL and others only lets you see the first hex along an LOS. So each unit could see only the two hexes on its own side. Seems OK to me. Of course, there are all kinds of other issues with Hill LOS in that case, as there are with every Hill LOS system I've seen.
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Elwyn Darden
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whatambush wrote:
I am a cardboard unit in a tactical wargame.

For this your parents sent you to college?

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Confusion Under Fire
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edarden wrote:
whatambush wrote:
I am a cardboard unit in a tactical wargame.

For this your parents sent you to college?



Yes, but I am a very proud 9-9-7-8
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Confusion Under Fire
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tppytel wrote:
Of course, there are all kinds of other issues with Hill LOS in that case, as there are with every Hill LOS system I've seen.


You are so right and I think the easy ones do a good job
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Brian Crawford
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Iridescent wrote:

#2. I simply don't understand what you are saying. B should not be able to see the hill hexes adjacent to A and vice versa. However, if the hill was one hex wide then both units could see the top of the hill but not each other.


I mainly have played Squad Leader on the tactical level games side of things and it doesn't allow you to see all the hexes of a hill. I don't know what game would? It shouldn't as it makes no sense, unless I missed something which has been known to happen before : ) A and B should only be allowed to see the hexes addjacent to them unless said rules have some sort of crest rule, even then you shouldn't be able to see over a crest.

What game allows you to do this when you talk about most LOS rules?
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Todd Pytel
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whatambush wrote:
You are so right and I think the easy ones do a good job

I think that the appropriate LOS system to use depends on what's being modelled. Standard ASL scenarios use hills that are too small to be "realistic" but are big enough to create the appropriate gameplay effect of a defensive strongpoint with LOS advantages. In that kind of situation, you typically have units defending the crest of a hill against units that are on lower ground. Thus, the Layer Cake Model works pretty well and is easy to use. But it breaks down when you have large hills with units fighting all the way up and down them - hence the introduction of Slopes in the Kampfgruppe Peiper modules to allow easier LOS at the expense of more rules complications. I imagine that one of the reasons that The Gamers used a much more complex LOS system in the Civil War Brigade Series is that so many important battles (especially Gettysburg) in the ACW turned on fights up and down hillsides. Layer cake hills would lead to some very ahistorical play in those situations.

So it depends. Layer cakes might be good enough for some cases, not enough for others.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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whatambush wrote:
I am a cardboard unit in a tactical wargame.


So that what bush am?


whatambush wrote:

Pedantic moment #1


Movement cost to move from one hex to another is the sum of the movement cost for entering each of the two hexes, divided by 2. There, fixed.

whatambush wrote:

Pedantic moment #2


Many LOS rules that I am familar with would actually have the 'near' hill hex block LOS to the 'far' hill hex.

whatambush wrote:

Pedantic moment over
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Andrea Doria
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The prior assessments of the LOS issues are absolutely correct. Is there some particular game system in which A & B could both see the entire hill mass?

As for the movement question, it's a small gap in the game play. The unit is assumed to be in the center of the hex for LOS purposes, but this is an acknowledged legal fiction. The unit is of course dispersed throughout the hex in a manner sensible for its present activities. Thus, there are no movement costs associated with the movement that takes place within a hex (various bypass rules aside). Thus, what the movement system is actually measuring is the cost of moving not from center to center, but really from the crossed hexside to any other hexside in the entered hex: that is, the cost of entering the hex and moving within it. This solves the supposed dilemma: the unit exiting the underbrush expends its movement points when coming into the clearing. But when returning to the woods, it expends movement points only after crossing the hexside into the wooded area, with its various impediments.
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Skip Franklin
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whatambush wrote:
I am a cardboard unit in a tactical wargame.

Pedantic moment #1
My movement is from the centre of one hex to the centre of an adjacent hex.
I am currently in a woods hex, I move to the edge of this hex and into the centre of an open hex, it costs me 1 movement point to do this. I return back to the woods hex at the exact same pace and follow the exact same route yet it costs me 2 movement points....Why oh why does it take me twice as long to complete the same journey?


The series that Barbarossa: Kiev to Rostov, 1941 is part of has this moment covered in the movement rules. This is the only game system I am aware of that covers this problem.
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Mark Luta
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How gratifying to know there are plenty of wargamers who will argue with The Pedantic Wargamer (tm), rather than just move on to find new opponents....
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Confusion Under Fire
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As far as moving into hexes of different costs we could take half the cost of the hex you are in and half the cost of the hex you are moving into which would give you a more exact figure. This is of course is unworkable in practice and anyway using either method would yield the same results over any given distance.

The idea was meant to raise a smile and not to question how we count hexes or to even try to change the way we do.

The Hill LOS question is where I have to raise the white flag and concede. I honestly thought I had read that in a couple of games I used to play but re reading those rules I am totally wrong. blush
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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markluta wrote:
How gratifying to know there are plenty of wargamers who will argue with The Pedantic Wargamer (tm), rather than just move on to find new opponents....


What do you mean? He IS our 'new opponent'.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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whatambush wrote:
As far as moving into hexes of different costs we could take half the cost of the hex you are in and half the cost of the hex you are moving into which would give you a more exact figure. This is of course is unworkable in practice and anyway using either method would yield the same results over any given distance.

The idea was meant to raise a smile and not to question how we count hexes or to even try to change the way we do....


Well, if you really were the 'pedantic wargamer', you wouldn't balk at a more exact but impractical solution. You sir are a fraud! angry
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Mark Buetow
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I'm still trying to figure out what a foot doctor has to do with wargaming...
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Elwyn Darden
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Malacandra wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what a foot doctor has to do with wargaming...


Good question. Most wargamers try to avoid defeat.
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edarden wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what a foot doctor has to do with wargaming...


Good question. Most wargamers try to avoid defeat.



They mostly do so on debutt.

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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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edarden wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what a foot doctor has to do with wargaming...


Good question. Most wargamers try to avoid defeat.


P u n s h i e l d s f a i l i n g .........

C a n ' t h o l d o n m u c h l o n g e r ........
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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whatambush wrote:
...The Hill LOS question is where I have to raise the white flag and concede. I honestly thought I had read that in a couple of games I used to play but re reading those rules I am totally wrong. blush


There may well be games where the LOS rules do produce the result you described. The 'sort' of rule I am more familiar with doesn't exhibit that particular issue. However, it does produce a different anomaly, then the gradient for height level differences isn't fine enough. I think of it as the 'table top' effect. To 'see' down below from a table, you need to be near the 'edge'. What might be a gently sloping hillside in reality, might wind up represented as a series of 'terrances', based on height 'levels' in a wargame. Picture it as concentric circles, on a hex grid. The problem is if one of the height level 'rings' or 'bands' around the hill is more than 1 hex wide, you create a 'shadow' effect where a unit cannot see, or be seen, if it is back from the 'edge' of that band.
 
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Elwyn Darden
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deadkenny wrote:
edarden wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what a foot doctor has to do with wargaming...


Good question. Most wargamers try to avoid defeat.


P u n s h i e l d s f a i l i n g .........

C a n ' t h o l d o n m u c h l o n g e r ........


Better step back they're going to blow....


Oh my God! They killed OMG They Killed Kenny!

You bastards!
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Nick Avtges
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whatambush wrote:
The Hill LOS question is where I have to raise the white flag and concede. I honestly thought I had read that in a couple of games I used to play but re reading those rules I am totally wrong. blush


Don't give up yet! I think Ambush! uses this kind of hill LOS. Of course it has separate rules for sharper elevation changes, I think they are called embankments and ridgelines, which behave similar to the common "layer-cake" approach. But the standard hill los rules in Ambush! allow what you describe.
 
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G. Harding Warren
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whatambush wrote:

The Hill LOS question is where I have to raise the white flag and concede. I honestly thought I had read that in a couple of games I used to play but re reading those rules I am totally wrong. :blush:


When it comes to wargames, I am so lacking in self-confidence. For a minute, I thought "Oh s---! I can't believe I've been playing Squad Leader wrong all this time".

You gave me a scare.
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Hunga Dunga
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edarden wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what a foot doctor has to do with wargaming...


Good question. Most wargamers try to avoid defeat.

Which is why wargamers are so prone to ingrown toenails, corns, blisters, varicose veins, and more general sores and aches.
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Confusion Under Fire
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nix342 wrote:
whatambush wrote:
The Hill LOS question is where I have to raise the white flag and concede. I honestly thought I had read that in a couple of games I used to play but re reading those rules I am totally wrong. blush


Don't give up yet! I think Ambush! uses this kind of hill LOS. Of course it has separate rules for sharper elevation changes, I think they are called embankments and ridgelines, which behave similar to the common "layer-cake" approach. But the standard hill los rules in Ambush! allow what you describe.


Well Ambush runs through my veins and what you describe is correct. Maybe these LOS rules are locked away in my subconscious somewhere.
 
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