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Subject: How far can you push the definition of a Print and Play game? rss

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Tim K
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I'm developing a game that I might make a print and play game. However it is starting to involve quite a lot of bits (money, chits, cards, dice etc.). At what point does it become so unwieldy that no one would actually ever bother to put all the pieces they need together to play it? I dare say that most regular board gamers would have most of the necessary peripheral bits and pieces (money, counters etc.) that they could borrow for a different game.

At the moment to play it I'm borrowing money from Monopoly, chits from Wits and Wagers and a 12-sided dice (that could be replicated with two 6-sided dice). The rest of the game can be printed off and cut to shape (such as the 45 cards that are in the game and the reference sheets).

Does every single thing you need to play the game be printable to be able to define it as a print and play game? If so would I need to have sheets of money and counters that could be printed off and cut into shape if you weren't able to borrow the bits from something else?

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Jack Neal
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As for me, I include optional print out bits for things but recommend cubes, coins, pieces etc. I steer clear of assuming anyone has any particular game at their house. I have changed my component lists (and often my design) if it does not work with a printer and card stock. No dials, no dice, nothing crazy... just cards or a set of sheets.

I assume most people have scissors but hope that anyone printing the game will have a straight edge trimmer. For cards, I hope they can find a corner punch, but hope they'll be okay with straight edges or carefully trimming corners. I assume most of the people here have Risk or Ticket To Ride or something with counters, but I still have counter sheets sometimes.

The more exotic components included, the more hassle it becomes. At a certain point, it's not worth the hassle even if the game is cool. Of course, you could offer to print and ship it for them as well (which worked for me in the past)....


Hope this helps.

(I could have sworn there was a thread here earlier in the month on this....)
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For some people (myself included), half of the appeal of print-and-play games is the process of creating it. For those folks, the more involved the process is, the more enjoyable it is, so don't be worried about them being too involved to make.
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Jack Neal
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Good points, Isaac. I keep forgetting this is a hobby sometimes. :-)
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Tim K
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Raiderjakk wrote:


(I could have sworn there was a thread here earlier in the month on this....)


Looks like I found the thread. Thanks for letting me know!

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/480160/question-about-ad...
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Jack Neal
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Kerbster76 wrote:
Raiderjakk wrote:


(I could have sworn there was a thread here earlier in the month on this....)


Looks like I found the thread. Thanks for letting me know!

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/480160/question-about-ad...


Its hard to keep track of things sometimes.... glad you found it!

Best of luck and keep us informed on how your game goes!
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Bill Plumley
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Maybe it's different for your game, but I warn you that two d6's does not equate to a d12 in any way. Just something to keep in mind if you are to actually make that recommendation in your game's release.

Aside from that, yeah, there are two kinds of people who go into print-and-plays. One that just wants to quickly run off what they need for it, maybe do a bit of cutting or mounting, and they're off to the races. Another, indeed, sees making the game as fun as actually getting to play it. It all depends on who you want to appeal to.

Perhaps provide money and chit templates, but mention in your instructions some effective alternatives to going through the process of making them, to give people the choice.
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Tim K
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Raiderjakk wrote:


Best of luck and keep us informed on how your game goes!


Once I've finished I plan to make a video summary/review of my own game! Nothing like a bit of self-publicity. The goal is to have it make the rankings on BGG by getting at least 30 votes! However the amount of people who will bother to print it off and play it is to some extent inversely proportion to how fiddly it is to do. Hopefully my game is good enough that people will be willing enough to make the effort to do it!
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Tim K
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billsayswow wrote:
Maybe it's different for your game, but I warn you that two d6's does not equate to a d12 in any way. Just something to keep in mind if you are to actually make that recommendation in your game's release.

.


You can if do as follows (just say you have a red and a blue 6 sided die)

red die 1-3, take the blue die as the value of the roll
red die 4-6, add 6 to the value of the blue die as the value of the roll.

Then you have a 12-sided dice!
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Bill Plumley
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Kerbster76 wrote:

You can if do as follows (just say you have a red and a blue 6 sided die)

red die 1-3, take the blue die as the value of the roll
red die 4-6, add 6 to the value of the blue die as the value of the roll.

Then you have a 12-sided dice!


You know, that's actually kinda clever. In theory, you could do it with one dice, and save yourself finding two colours.
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Cary Tyler
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Remember that 2d6 rolled and added together generates different probabilities for each number (2-12) than a single d12 (1-12) does. Each numeral on a d12 has a 8.33333% chance of being rolled. With 2d6 added together a result of "2" or "12" occurs 2.77778% but a "7" has a probability of 16.66667%. If you want to use cards to generate random numbers from 1-12 create 48 cards that have four sets of the numerals 1 through 12 printed on it. Shuffle and draw, replace then repeat for each draw.
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Bill Plumley
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WvonBraun wrote:
Remember that 2d6 rolled and added together generates different probabilities for each number (2-12) than a single d12 (1-12) does. Each numeral on a d12 has a 8.33333% chance of being rolled. With 2d6 added together a result of "2" or "12" occurs 2.77778% but a "7" has a probability of 16.66667%. If you want to use cards to generate random numbers from 1-12 create 48 cards that have four sets of the numerals 1 through 12 printed on it. Shuffle and draw, reshuffle for each draw.


I pointed this out as well. Look two posts above yours
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Gláucio Reis
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Raiderjakk wrote:
As for me, I include optional print out bits for things but recommend cubes, coins, pieces etc.

That's what I did with my game Kingdom of Heroes. It's probably the best solution, but it means extra work for you, the designer.

Quote:
(I could have sworn there was a thread here earlier in the month on this....)

Yes, there was.

Verkisto wrote:
For some people (myself included), half of the appeal of print-and-play games is the process of creating it. For those folks, the more involved the process is, the more enjoyable it is, so don't be worried about them being too involved to make.

Then you probably would like my game. Full-size board, cards, lots of player pieces, a few tokens. Strategic Euro, big box material.
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Cary Tyler
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billsayswow wrote:
WvonBraun wrote:
Remember that 2d6 rolled and added together generates different probabilities for each number (2-12) than a single d12 (1-12) does. Each numeral on a d12 has a 8.33333% chance of being rolled. With 2d6 added together a result of "2" or "12" occurs 2.77778% but a "7" has a probability of 16.66667%. If you want to use cards to generate random numbers from 1-12 create 48 cards that have four sets of the numerals 1 through 12 printed on it. Shuffle and draw, reshuffle for each draw.


I pointed this out as well. Look two posts above yours


But you didn't explain the difference, I did.
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WvonBraun wrote:
If you want to use cards to generate random numbers from 1-12 create 48 cards that have four sets of the numerals 1 through 12 printed on it. Shuffle and draw, replace then repeat for each draw.


If a game asked me to do this, I would demand my money back...
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PnP dice
http://www.puam.be/freedice/index.html

Here's another page
http://www.dicecollector.com/MY_PAPER.HTM - do not mind the pop up, he just wants to make it clear that he doesn't SELL dice.
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Andrew Eveninger
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feydjm wrote:
WvonBraun wrote:
If you want to use cards to generate random numbers from 1-12 create 48 cards that have four sets of the numerals 1 through 12 printed on it. Shuffle and draw, replace then repeat for each draw.


If a game asked me to do this, I would demand my money back...


True.
I'll only add that we must be aware and avoid making print&buy games
 
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Tim K
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I've release my game now. It's called Lemonade Stall.

Interested to see what people think about the amount of files required to play the game and how many people are likely to have the "recommended" additional components that are required (which is money in $1, $5, $10 and $20 denominations and stock cubes or counters in 2 different demoninations). I do have alternative files that people can print out if they don't have the recommended optional components.

Files can be downloaded by following this link.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/54642/lemonade-stall-g...

Would YOU be intereted in spending the effort to print and play the game?

The first section of the video review that I have made essentially shows you the components that the game is made up of.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/514419/video-review-win-...
 
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Joe Mucchiello
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Kerbster76 wrote:
Would YOU be intereted in spending the effort to print and play the game?

In it's current form? No. One PDF with everything. And why is there a single page with a big glass of lemonade in the upper left? Are you trying to waste my paper? It could be combined with the benefit page to save on printing.

Couldn't the weather page and the time page have been combined and cut up? And speaking of cutting, the weather page has no boxes around the images. How big do I cut them out? Do they need to be uniform in size? How do I do that?

Why isn't the cups sold matrix on the game reference page? Turn the player aid page sideways and put two on the same page so I can print it better.

All the rules should be in the rule book. Having to swap between the rule book, rule reference and the player aid isn't convenient, especially when you aren't sure where to check first.

Rules bug:

Quote:
The game takes place over 7 days or round (from Monday to Friday).

I think you mean Monday to Sunday. (And round should be rounds)

In game setup add the text "In a 2-player game, remove the Petty Theft event card. It is not used in the 2-player game."

On the player aid, costs for supplies should say "First 10 units of (good) (price)" since the aid makes it look like you can get 20 cups for $16 while the rulebook implies that only the first 10 units get the reduced rate. (Or is the rulebook wrong?)
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Benny Sperling
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Keep in mind that publishers may shy away from a game with tons of bits. Why not use bits that others would have already? Most people who do PnP have lots of wooden blocks, fake money, and all that good stuff lying around.
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Joe Mucchiello
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benny275 wrote:
Keep in mind that publishers may shy away from a game with tons of bits. Why not use bits that others would have already? Most people who do PnP have lots of wooden blocks, fake money, and all that good stuff lying around.

Of course this game doesn't need most of the bits it has. The player mat could just have grid numbered 1-20 under each of the four resources and you could use four pennies to keep track of how much of each resources you have. That drops the "cube" requirements from 120 in two sizes to 16 + benefit markers (24 covers the maximum needed benefit markers but again this could be limited to 16 and if only the same 2-3 benefits are taken each round then eventually no more benefit markers accrue on the other benefits). The grids also provides a nice physical limitation to the game. Your lemonade stand wouldn't hold more than 20 of each resource once there were grids.

At some point I can see myself creating my own copy of this but as a summer season where you work weekends rather than just a week. (And with locations! Buy the wheels upgrade and setup your stall in the park or the beach.... I loved that video game.)
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Peter Sanderson
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Look at the PnP games on BGG, and sort them by the number owned. This wil give you some idea of how many bits and pieces people will tolerate in a PnP game. Have a look down the list and see how many contain as many pieces as the game you're making. If you have to go a long way down to count a few, then consider simplfying the number of pieces required.
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jmucchiello wrote:
Kerbster76 wrote:
Would YOU be intereted in spending the effort to print and play the game?

In it's current form? No. One PDF with everything. And why is there a single page with a big glass of lemonade in the upper left? Are you trying to waste my paper? It could be combined with the benefit page to save on printing.

Couldn't the weather page and the time page have been combined and cut up? And speaking of cutting, the weather page has no boxes around the images. How big do I cut them out? Do they need to be uniform in size? How do I do that?

Why isn't the cups sold matrix on the game reference page? Turn the player aid page sideways and put two on the same page so I can print it better.

All the rules should be in the rule book. Having to swap between the rule book, rule reference and the player aid isn't convenient, especially when you aren't sure where to check first.

Rules bug:

Quote:
The game takes place over 7 days or round (from Monday to Friday).

I think you mean Monday to Sunday. (And round should be rounds)

In game setup add the text "In a 2-player game, remove the Petty Theft event card. It is not used in the 2-player game."

On the player aid, costs for supplies should say "First 10 units of (good) (price)" since the aid makes it look like you can get 20 cups for $16 while the rulebook implies that only the first 10 units get the reduced rate. (Or is the rulebook wrong?)


Thanks for you comments and suggestions.

I have noticed the error in the rulebook. It should read Monday to Sunday. I'm working on version 1.1 and some more print and play friendly files.
 
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Joe Mucchiello
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Also, combine the player aid and the player mat into a single handout so there's less "stuff".
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Tim K
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I've have finished a revision of the game.

Until admin approves the new files the new version of the game can be found at this link.

http://users.adam.com.au/23norman/Lemonade.htm
 
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