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Dominion: Intrigue» Forums » General

Subject: When could you use Tribute to "attack" someone? rss

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Kevin Elmore
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I've seen the posts about how Tribute should be an attack. I have a friend who keeps insisting that Tribute keeps screwing him over, even when I point out that it's just random chance that could result in him discarding either a Noble or an Estate.

So, I'm firmly in the camp that Tribute is not harmful to the opponent, nor should it ever be considered an attack, especially since I consider it beneficial when that person is much closer to shuffling his new purchases into a new draw deck.

But, I'm curious as to how Tribute could be manipulated in order to consciously hurt someone. I'm a bit hard-pressed to find an example, but I'm willing to throw out some concepts.

* When someone else plays a Spy and leaves a Province (or Estate) on the top of his deck, while you suspect (or know because of Bureaucrat or Cutpurse) that he has an Explorer (or Baron), so you purposely make him discard that victory card.
* When your LHO has played Secret Chamber during the turn, so you suspect that he put two good cards on top for his next draw.

Um, that's all I can think of. I am always a little amused at how people rail against this "attack" card, even though I know they wouldn't whine if Tribute ever turned over two Curse cards (though the Tribute player would be sad).

Kevin
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Roberta Yang
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If you or someone else played Bureaucrat beforehand, you might know that their top card was a useful card like Nobles.

If you or someone else played a Ghost Ship beforehand, the same effect as Secret Chamber could be seen - perhaps they decided to ruin this hand and make their next hand great by leaving behind their strongest cards. (On the other hand, maybe they decided this hand was good even with only three cards left and you just milled two Estates for them.)

Also, Tribute tends to be slightly bad for the LHO near the end of the game when people have stopped buying Treasure/Actions and started buying Victory, since at that point random deck cycling causes the useless Victory cards to be shuffled into the deck slightly sooner. (During the rest of the game, of course, the extra cycling is a good thing.)

Really, though, Tribute generally isn't bad for the target player, so it's still absurd to whine about how it should be considered an Attack.
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David desJardins
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Kuildeous wrote:
* When someone else plays a Spy and leaves a Province (or Estate) on the top of his deck, while you suspect (or know because of Bureaucrat or Cutpurse) that he has an Explorer (or Baron), so you purposely make him discard that victory card.


This doesn't make any sense. When your opponent plays a Spy, whether or not he leaves the known card on top of his deck, he will draw it at the end of his turn, before you could possibly play your Tribute.

In any case, the Tribute is such an expensive and powerful card that it's hard to imagine you would ever not play it, if you could.
 
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Roberta Yang
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Kuildeous wrote:
* When someone else plays a Spy and leaves a Province (or Estate) on the top of his deck, while you suspect (or know because of Bureaucrat or Cutpurse) that he has an Explorer (or Baron), so you purposely make him discard that victory card.


This doesn't make any sense. When your opponent plays a Spy, whether or not he leaves the known card on top of his deck, he will draw it at the end of his turn, before you could possibly play your Tribute.


I interpreted the Spy comment as meaning that the Spy was played not by the LHO but by a third player.

DaviddesJ wrote:
In any case, the Tribute is such an expensive and powerful card that it's hard to imagine you would ever not play it, if you could.


Which throws this all back into randomness.
 
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David desJardins
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salty53 wrote:
I interpreted the Spy comment as meaning that the Spy was played not by the LHO but by a third player.


I see. That makes sense. I still can't see how any of this would make enough difference to affect your decision to play, or not play, your Tribute.
 
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Jon
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I don't see Tribute as an attack, but here are some situations that would be irritating:

If they have played more than 5 Treasuries, you can Tribute to discard the Treasuries they couldn't draw into their hand.

If you play Sea Hag first, you can play Tribute so that they cannot immediately trash it with Lookout or draw it and trash it with some other combo.

After Ghost Ship, if you suspect they have tried to setup their next hand, you might do some harm. Kind of like your Secret Chamber example.
 
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Guy Srinivasan
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When your LHO has several duration cards out and 1 card in her draw deck. But yeah, you're gonna play it anyway, so this only comes up if you have two action cards in hand and you really want to make sure to play the other but not so much that you're unwilling to risk the Tribute for actions play.
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Kevin Elmore
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DaviddesJ wrote:
This doesn't make any sense. When your opponent plays a Spy, whether or not he leaves the known card on top of his deck, he will draw it at the end of his turn, before you could possibly play your Tribute.


As pointed out, this would only work for a game with 3+ players. Obviously, if the LHO plays a Spy (or Scout or Courtyard or Navigator), then there is nothing you can do to him before he draws those cards.

DaviddesJ wrote:
In any case, the Tribute is such an expensive and powerful card that it's hard to imagine you would ever not play it, if you could.


If you could... Although, there are those unfortunate times where you might have to choose between two actions.

More to the point, this is just a little mental masturbation with rhetoric and what ifs. I'm just tickled by the claims that Tribute is an attack card, so I decided to see how it could be one.

Although, Masquerade is interesting, in that the person playing the card knows what he can give his LHO, so lots of possibilities there (my favorite is when I played Torturer, and my LHO took the Curse, only to Masquerade it to his LHO).

Just a little fluff.

Kevin
 
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David desJardins
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OK, here's a theoretical situation, you start with a 5-card hand including Pearl Diver and no other action, you play the Pearl Diver and draw a Pawn, the card on the bottom of your deck is Tribute. Then you could conceivably consider the likely effect on your opponent in deciding whether to put the Tribute on top so you can play it this turn, or leave it on the bottom to play later. It still seems awfully far-fetched that that would be enough of a reason to affect your decision.

Quote:
I'm just tickled by the claims that Tribute is an attack card, so I decided to see how it could be one.


I don't think you have to know that it's going to hurt your opponent for it to be an attack. Sometimes Minion will help your opponent (and you might even know that it will) and you will still play it.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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When another player succeeds in using Treasure Map, Throne Room your Tribute. Sure, you'll only get 4 coins, but your opponent will miss out on 12.
 
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Jon
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mlvanbie wrote:
When another player succeeds in using Treasure Map, Throne Room your Tribute. Sure, you'll only get 4 coins, but your opponent will miss out on 12.


Except that they would have drawn their gold at the end of their turn.
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Roberta Yang
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DaviddesJ wrote:
OK, here's a theoretical situation, you start with a 5-card hand including Pearl Diver and no other action, you play the Pearl Diver and draw a Pawn, the card on the bottom of your deck is Tribute. Then you could conceivably consider the likely effect on your opponent in deciding whether to put the Tribute on top so you can play it this turn, or leave it on the bottom to play later. It still seems awfully far-fetched that that would be enough of a reason to affect your decision.

Quote:
I'm just tickled by the claims that Tribute is an attack card, so I decided to see how it could be one.


I don't think you have to know that it's going to hurt your opponent for it to be an attack. Sometimes Minion will help your opponent (and you might even know that it will) and you will still play it.


You could think of it in less tactical and more strategic terms. Perhaps the presence of Secret Chamber, or Ghost Ship, or Bureaucrat alongside Nobles, or something else like that encouraged you to buy Tribute in the first place when you might otherwise have bought something else.

Granted, this is still horribly far-fetched, since it seems unlikely that something like that would be the deciding factor.
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Gene Chiu
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The act of putting the top two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile is no different than putting the bottom two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile in general. Playing Tribute does not necessarily mean that the player who has to put the top cards of his draw pile into discard is necessarily going to get a worse hand when he draws. He will still draw 5 cards in his next clean up step. He still has 5 cards in his hand to play.

This type of effect has more of a psycological effect on players rather than anything else. The top two cards could be victory cards in which case the player would likely draw a better hand. Even if those cards were not victory cards, it doesn't mean that it lesses the chance of that player drawing into a good hand next time around.
 
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Myke Madsen
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Stuntman wrote:
The act of putting the top two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile is no different than putting the bottom two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile in general. Playing Tribute does not necessarily mean that the player who has to put the top cards of his draw pile into discard is necessarily going to get a worse hand when he draws. He will still draw 5 cards in his next clean up step. He still has 5 cards in his hand to play.

This type of effect has more of a psycological effect on players rather than anything else. The top two cards could be victory cards in which case the player would likely draw a better hand. Even if those cards were not victory cards, it doesn't mean that it lesses the chance of that player drawing into a good hand next time around.


I think the posters to this thread are well aware of that (even though many others are not), in fact the OP clearly states as much.

The point of this thread (as I understand it) is a mental exercise to see if you could setup a situation where Tribute would act as a deliberate attack: in other words, you know that discarding the top two cards will hurt your opponent more than discarding any random two cards from his deck.

I'm sure there's some combination of extra action cards + Spies, Bureaucrats, Ghost Ships and Tributes that results in not only screwing over your LHO (and everyone else) but also getting you almost exactly what you want from Tribute.
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David desJardins
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Stuntman wrote:
The act of putting the top two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile is no different than putting the bottom two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile in general.


Yes, it is different, and generally better. That's the whole idea behind the Chancellor. Your discard pile has cards you have recently bought; for most of the game, these will be better, on average, than what's in your draw pile.

(OK, I misread this post, sorry.)
 
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Jon
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Stuntman wrote:
The act of putting the top two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile is no different than putting the bottom two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile in general.


Yes, it is different, and generally better. That's the whole idea behind the Chancellor. Your discard pile has cards you have recently bought; for most of the game, these will be better, on average, than what's in your draw pile.




I am sorry, but I do not follow this. Why is the top of your deck better than the bottom of your deck, assuming that you haven't manipulated either?
 
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Myke Madsen
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JonPrud wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Stuntman wrote:
The act of putting the top two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile is no different than putting the bottom two cards of your draw pile into your discard pile in general.


Yes, it is different, and generally better. That's the whole idea behind the Chancellor. Your discard pile has cards you have recently bought; for most of the game, these will be better, on average, than what's in your draw pile.




I am sorry, but I do not follow this. Why is the top of your deck better than the bottom of your deck, assuming that you haven't manipulated either?


I don't know about you, but when I shuffle I always make sure my good cards end up toward the top.
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David desJardins
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JonPrud wrote:
I am sorry, but I do not follow this. Why is the top of your deck better than the bottom of your deck, assuming that you haven't manipulated either?


I'm sorry, I misread your post. I don't understand your point now. Why are you comparing putting the top two cards of your deck in your discard pile, to putting the bottom two cards in your discard pile? There's no way to do the latter, as far as I know. And the people who object to the former will object equally to the latter.
 
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Myke Madsen
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DaviddesJ wrote:
JonPrud wrote:
I am sorry, but I do not follow this. Why is the top of your deck better than the bottom of your deck, assuming that you haven't manipulated either?


I'm sorry, I misread your post. I don't understand your point now. Why are you comparing putting the top two cards of your deck in your discard pile, to putting the bottom two cards in your discard pile? There's no way to do the latter, as far as I know. And the people who object to the former will object equally to the latter.


(I think) Stuntman was just saying that putting the top two cards in your discard is the same as putting any other two cards in your discard, because they're (usually) unknown.
 
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John Anderson
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DaviddesJ wrote:
JonPrud wrote:
I am sorry, but I do not follow this. Why is the top of your deck better than the bottom of your deck, assuming that you haven't manipulated either?


I'm sorry, I misread your post. I don't understand your point now. Why are you comparing putting the top two cards of your deck in your discard pile, to putting the bottom two cards in your discard pile? There's no way to do the latter, as far as I know. And the people who object to the former will object equally to the latter.
I think the distinction he's making is the psychological difference it could make. With the Tribute, you could get the "aww, those would have been my next draws" effect. But if you drew from the bottom it wouldn't be quite as immediate.

I think the people who dislike Tribute would dislike the other way too, but I think there is a subtle psychological distinction between the two methods.
 
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Myke Madsen
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DaviddesJ wrote:
salty53 wrote:
I interpreted the Spy comment as meaning that the Spy was played not by the LHO but by a third player.


I see. That makes sense. I still can't see how any of this would make enough difference to affect your decision to play, or not play, your Tribute.


What if they had previously used Ghost Ship or Secret Chamber to put a couple of Curses on the top of their deck? Then your Tribute would get you nothing. (I realize this is a bit of a stretch).

I do see some limited value in playing Spy then Tribute, especially if you have a good sense of your LHO's deck composition. You might be looking for a specific bonus from Tribute and playing Spy would conceivably better your odds of getting it.
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Michael Link
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I finally bought Intrigue yesterday at my FLGS and was immediately approached by a Magic player to play a 2er. The guy said he played over 20 hours of Dominion in the last 3 days alone and had a lot of experience with Intrigue. My only experience with it was via BSW, which does not include Tribute.

Anyway, I played a conventional game using Baron and Mining Village + treasure as a modified Big Money. He bought numerous Tributes and was tributing me at least once on every turn, sometimes 2 or even three times with the +Action possibility of the card. I bought a Province the first time I hit 8 coin and he remarked "Huh, I've hit 8 coins several times already, surprised you're buying a province so early".

Even though the Tribute hit me very hard and more than once forced me to discard 2 golds, I won that game by nearly 20 points. The added deck cycling helped me more than hurt me.
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John Anderson
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theright555J wrote:
The added deck cycling helped me more than hurt me.
It almost always will, and that's the point.
 
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puck71 wrote:
theright555J wrote:
The added deck cycling helped me more than hurt me.
It almost always will, and that's the point.


Yes, that's the point. The question raised by the OP is under what theoretical situation the Tribute could be used as an attack, or in other words what two cards would be most damaging to your opponent if you could willfully discard them. Little is more damaging than getting two golds hit, so if the Tribute can't beat that, there are likely no times it can be used as a specific attack. The opponent's deck is merely used as a randomizer.
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Gene Chiu
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HappyProle wrote:
(I think) Stuntman was just saying that putting the top two cards in your discard is the same as putting any other two cards in your discard, because they're (usually) unknown.

Yeah. That's what I was trying to say. You said it more elegantly than I.

As for possibly using it for an attack, it would require that the person playing Tribute to know that the top two cards of the draw pile is better than any two random cards in his deck. It is possible if that player played Secret Chamber in response to an attack, you may suspect that the cards that player put back are better than average. There are probably other situations, but I do not think that they occur often enough to be worth the effort to set up.
 
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