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Subject: strategical depth of the game rss

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Charalampos Kapageridis
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I just played this game with a friend of mine yesterday for his first time !
(i had played it before again but my friend not)
I had Jack.
During the game, he seemed to be thinking his moves too much while most of the times the most
obvious move was the best (moving characters away each other etc.)
In the end, he said that for him the game had NO Depth. (note that he plays chess very good)
I, on the other hand, like Mr.jack and don't agree. (though i also think it was one of the most "light" games i have played).
Do you agree that Mr.jack can be a light-strategic game some times?
What do you think led my friend to that conclusion ?
 
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Dan
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cyberkp wrote:
Do you agree that Mr.jack can be a light-strategic game some times?
What do you think led my friend to that conclusion ?

Did he lose?

I think it's one of the best games I have in terms of layers of strategy. I've played over 150 games online (even one with the creator of the game!) and am amazed that I still learn new things.

Still, it's lighter than chess, but a whole lot more fun imo.
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Charalampos Kapageridis
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yes, he did lose. but he is not a whining player. so i dont think he said that because of losing.
the truth is, he uncovered the suspects, 0 or 1 each turn. Slow but steady.
 
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Dan
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by what you wrote, you may have made this easier for him. You said the obvious move (you were Jack, right?) was to move characters away from each other, i.e. into the dark. Jack should usually be trying to keep characters in the light, as it's easier to light up a character than permanently shroud him in darkness.

1-2 characters per turn is a very good average. Part of the game, as Jack, is preparing for there to be only 2-3 characters left for the inspector to choose and making the deductive decision between who really is Jack as difficult as possible.
 
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Russ Williams
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I'm confused. The Detective should be uncovering suspects, one after another... that's normal. Do you mean your friend thought it was too light because he uncovered suspects (but nonetheless lost...?) That sounds like saying "Chess is light because I captured some pieces."
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Charalampos Kapageridis
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you are right. I wrote the post fast and it doesn't make sense. What i meant is that he uncovered 2 people at first turn
but after that, he was doing slowly. some turns none, some turns 1. In the end, he was not that bad though as he had only 2 suspects.
I don't know if the problem was that i played some moves at start, turning the board to my side, and leaving him with no other good moves than the most obvious (he never used an ability to uncover someone. he did that only by moving away!!)
or if he simply didn't understood the flow of play, and found it "shallow" for that reason.
I wanted to know if you had the same problem, when playing with someone for their first time
and if it may be better to give Jack to a newcomer...

 
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Dan
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It's a game in which the experienced player will normally beat the less experienced player. With two new players, I think Jack is easier. When both players have experience, the inspector is going to win the majority of games.

I hope he gives it another shot! For me, it has everything that I like about chess, with none of what I don't like.
 
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Russ Williams
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I would give a newbie the Detective side, because it seems most beginners find it harder to play Jack well. (They usually make the mistake of ineptly trying to set up a doomed escape attempt instead of keeping most characters grouped and visible.) Based on reading many forum threads from new players, it seems many newbies think it's impossible to win with Jack.

Of course if one player is experienced, that player will probably beat a newbie regardless of which sides they take, but I'd expect the newbie to have a better chance with the Detective side than with Jack.
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russ wrote:
I would give a newbie the Detective side, because it seems most beginners find it harder to play Jack well. (They usually make the mistake of ineptly trying to set up a doomed escape attempt instead of keeping most characters grouped and visible.) Based on reading many forum threads from new players, it seems many newbies think it's impossible to win with Jack.

Of course if one player is experienced, that player will probably beat a newbie regardless of which sides they take, but I'd expect the newbie to have a better chance with the Detective side than with Jack.


Hehehe that's exactly our experience. We were both noobs and I took the inspector (because my g/f had an easier time grasping what Mr. Jack had to do) the first couple games and won both easily. So then we swapped...and even though I snuck out a victory, I'd say its much harder to be jack as a total noob.
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Todd Pytel
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oeolycus wrote:
I think it's one of the best games I have in terms of layers of strategy. I've played over 150 games online (even one with the creator of the game!) and am amazed that I still learn new things.

I have just the opposite impression - the game seems very much the same to me with repeated plays. Like your friend said, the basic idea is to eliminate just one suspect every round. So it becomes a tactical game rather than a strategic one - given the card draw and board position for the round, how can the Detective guarantee that one suspect is eliminated? And how can Jack avoid that? You both just go round to round and see what you can come up with, rather than plan and execute any kind of long-term strategy.

Perhaps I just haven't played enough to grok the depths of the game. But after a dozen or so plays against several opponents, I don't have any interest in playing more to find out.
 
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aaarg_ink wrote:
russ wrote:
I would give a newbie the Detective side, because it seems most beginners find it harder to play Jack well. (They usually make the mistake of ineptly trying to set up a doomed escape attempt instead of keeping most characters grouped and visible.) Based on reading many forum threads from new players, it seems many newbies think it's impossible to win with Jack.

Of course if one player is experienced, that player will probably beat a newbie regardless of which sides they take, but I'd expect the newbie to have a better chance with the Detective side than with Jack.


Hehehe that's exactly our experience. We were both noobs and I took the inspector (because my g/f had an easier time grasping what Mr. Jack had to do) the first couple games and won both easily. So then we swapped...and even though I snuck out a victory, I'd say its much harder to be jack as a total noob.

I tend to agree here. Understanding Jack's role of keeping people together is easier than the Detective's role of splitting them up. That said, it is easier to win as the Detective

In the end, depends on your goal - ease of understanding or ease of winning.
 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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I agree that the game is far more tactical than strategic, but fail to see how that makes it uninteresting. The game plays quite quickly, and the few strategic decisions are difficult and momentous.

I think the game truly comes into its own only when both players understand it well, and the focus shifts from the physical board to the mind of the opponent. Working out what he sees, and how he will react, is far deeper and more interesting than the board position alone.
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Andre Lucato
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Me and my wife had our 1st game of Mr Jack yesterday, playing two games in both sides. It was really quick as Jack got caught in no more than 3 turns, though it was clearly due to the fact both of us were still getting used to the characters movements while trying to keep most of them either hidden or being seen. It doesn't mean the game has no depth, and we are really looking forward to the next game.
 
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