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Subject: Who has written those rules?? rss

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Volker Hirscher
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... he will surely get the price award for the "worst rules ever"! At least the german translator will, and almost the same non-quality applies ot the english rules.

I just played the game for the first time, having read the rules twice and partly three times, and: they stole my time! Don't know if the game is good or not. But whoever wrote/translated those rules should change his job and do something he actually CAN do. No, lack of time is no excuse for that! Not only is the meaning of the translation wrong - even the german grammar is incorrect!! This is somehow a really cruel joke. And where is the promised rules update? They sell an over-expensive game in a bad quality, and all we get is a lousy FAQ. Sorry guys. It's just no fun playing when you have to deal with this pointless accumulation of @"§$§!

I know there are already threads concerning the bad rules quality, but sorry. I'm really a bit angry right now...


[Edited for typo]
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Frank Strauss
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You´re right, the rules are very bad ( in every language ) but the game itself is very good when you have managed to get all the rules together.

The things you should use for this game:

German:
http://www.unknowns.de/wbb2/jgs_db.php?action=show&eintrags_...=
German short rules

English ( and highly recommended ):
defenders-book-a6-booklet
invaders-book-a6-booklet

With those files the game should be no problem !
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Gunther Schmidl
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1) "These rules were hurried and they suck! We demand new rules!"

2) "The new rules aren't hurried enough!"

Choose one.
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O R
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I have to agree, this is terrible rule writing. Even the latest versions have holes in them.

And the FAQ isn't much better. People make wrong assumptions in their questions, the guy answers and doesn't even take time correct the assumption (which might get addressed somewhere else completely in the FAQ).

I don't know how bad the translations are, but to give those results, the original ones surely weren't stellar to start with. This is why you do play tests, cross proof-reading and foreign reviewing before you release a product.

The fact that this game isn't in the gutter despite those rules certainly is a tribute to the rest of it though.
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James Mckane
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Thanks for the heads up, I've been eyeing this one off for some time but badly written rules are like asking santa for a Xbox game about vampires and getting a Twilight book. Again i can cross this off my list for the time being at least. Thanks.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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I know the english rules are bad, but you can't imagine how bad the german translation is - it is even worse!

Yes, I personally would have cut this off my list if I had known before what a torture this would become... And actually, I think about selling it (and maybe getting it again if it comes out with better rules, a player aid (essential!!!), and with a "sorry"-letter )
 
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Denis Obrul
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Any idea where the new, revised rules are? They were promising them soon after new year.
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Volker Hirscher
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Danke, Frank - useful links! Especially compared to the (for new players) useless player aid posted by the designer...
 
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Joe JoneS
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Yes, the updated rule book is useful.

Thanks.
 
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Ola Sundin
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I do agree that the rules are really badly written, but Stronghold is still a great game. It is a complex game and I think it's targeted against more experienced gamers. Most questions I read on BGG are answered in the rules book if you just care to read it carefully. Who cares if you interpret one or two rules wrong as long as you have fun playing it?

I feel that all the criticism and whining is uncalled for. Personally I had more difficulties understanding Ghost Stories after last Essen than I had getting hold of Strongold. That's just my two cents...
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Volker Hirscher
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Yes, Ghost stories was another example for poorly written rules. What makes the Stronghold rules not better than they are. And I am an experienced gamer, if that is what you wanted to say...

But as stated above, the german rules are even worse than the english ones. La-Ola for the translators...
 
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Jamey Philipp
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Yes the rules are supposed to be re-written, anyone hear anything on progress?
 
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Michal Bronkowski
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Polish version came out yesterday, you can take a look here: http://files.neuroshima.org/Stronghold_edit2.pdf.
I think English will follow shortly, but maybe not to fast because they want to do it right this time :-)
The good news it is soooo much better, the bad news it is still not perfect... well maybe english version will be if the polish one will be treated as a beta test, but that would mean more waiting for you guys

I noticed some changes to the prior official answers... for example there is a note that you cannot move hero after you use his ability (earlier it was said that the officer speach works where it was given not where the officer stands in the attack phase), personally I think it is a good rule because it is simple.
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M. S.
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Sorry for my answer in english, but I was a little bit "furious" and so it was better to switch to German

So let`s go....

Quote:
But as stated above, the german rules are even worse than the english ones. La-Ola for the translators...


Hallo Volker,

nachdem du ja dich sehr deutlich über die deutschen Regeln ausgelassen hast, was ja auch dein gutes Recht ist, möchte ich dir dennoch einige Hintergrundinformationen geben, zumal ich bei der deutschen Übersetzung mitgeholfen habe und du mich hiermit "anschießst":

Portal (bzw. der Erstübersetzer, welcher vom Polnischen ins Deutsche die Regeln übersetzte ) kam 3 Wochen vor Essen zu mir und fragte mich, ob ich einen Blick über die Regeln werfen könne, zumal ich dies schon mehrfach für diesen bei anderen Spielen getan hatte.

Zu meinem Hintergrund: Ich bin promovierter Naturwissenschaftler und denke sehr wohl, dass ich der deutschen Sprache und der deutschen Grammatik mächtig bin! ...das aber nur so am Rande

Als denn: 3 Wochen vor Essen, ein Word Dokument in der Hand, kein Bild vom Spiel, nur eine 20-seitige Regel, welche einen Haufen von Fehlern (inhaltlich wie sprachlich) aufwies.
Da ich berufstätig bin, blieb für mich nur Zeit zum Übersetzen nach meiner Arbeit und das ging dann oft von 20 Uhr bis 3 Uhr Nachts. Kohle bekommt man dafür übrigens keine!
Man versucht inhaltliche Fehler einer 20-seitigen Regel, sowie grammatikalische Fehler zu verbessern. Man versucht sich hierbei das Spiel vorzustellen, wie es funktioniert, was mit jedem Wort wohl gemeint ist etc.

Kurzum: Die Regel ist nicht die einfachste und man hat keine Bilder oder kein Spiel zur Hand, um sich die Sache vorstellen zu können.

Egal: Man hilft beim Übersetzen mit, damit es der deutsche Spieler in Essen zocken kann und seinen Spaß daran findet.

Man entwirft einen ersten Verbesserungsvorschlag.....schickt ihn per Mail weg.....hört 1 Woche lang nichts...bekommt 2 Wochen vor Essen eine verbesserte Version. Segnet diese ab...bekommt 10 Tage vor Essen dann eine Version mit Bildern....dann stellt man fest, dass einige Sachen so nicht stimmen....verbessert die Regel.....am Vortag des Drucks bekommt man um 22 Uhr die Regel geschickt, mit der Bitte um Durchsicht. Dann stellt man fest, dass einige Fehler NICHT verbessert wurden. Da die Zeit fehlt, scannt man die Regel ein, markiert Fehler und hofft, dass sie noch verbessert werden.

Dies geschah nicht!
Meine finale Verbesserung wurde wohl aus zeitlichen Gründen nicht mehr vom Verlag berücksichtigt....?! Keine Ahnung...

Das ist auf der einen Seite ärgerlich, denn die Regel enthält in der Tat einige Fehler, ABER sie ist meines Erachtens nicht schlechter als die Orginalregel oder die englische Version der Regel. Auch kann man, sofern man Vielspieler ist, das Spiel, anhand der vorhandenen Regel, besser spielen als gemeinhin angenommen wird. Es treten lediglich spezifische Fragen während des Spiels auf, die ich aber beim Korrigieren der Regel noch nicht so sehen konnte.

Kurzum: Ich habe mir echt Mühe gegeben, das Spiel bzw. die Regel, in dem mir gegebenem engen zeitlichen Rahmen, zu korrigieren bzw. zu übersetzen, damit jeder deutschsprechende Spieler das Spiel spielen kann.

Darum ärgert es mich umso mehr, wenn man einfach mal so seine Meinung herausballert, ohne:

1) jeden Hintergrund darüber zu kennen
2) einfach mal pauschalisiert, dass "nur " die deutsche Regel schlecht sei -> was definitiv nicht (!) der Fall ist
3) das Spiel mit der Regel nicht spielbar sei -> man kann sehr wohl das Spiel mit der vorhandenen Regel spielen. Ein Gelegenheitsspieler wird da sicherlich seine Probleme haben, aber das SPiel ist nunmal komplex und die Regel 20 Seiten lang.....

Natürlich hoffe ich aber auch auf eine verbesserte und besser verständliche deutsche Version der Regel, denn die hat das Spiel wirklich verdient.


Klarstellenden Gruß
Mario

P.S. Solltest du in meinem jetzigen Posting Fehler finden, darfst du sie gerne behalten... ...genau wie ich deine behalte:
Quote:
"... he will surely get the price for the "worst rules ever"! "





 
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Volker Hirscher
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Just a short answer to your long (lenghty ) post, as I am in a hurry. I will answer in English, anyway. Just one note to start with: While I am not an English native speaker, you are a german native speaker. So correcting my English-mistakes is probably not suitable... (and the one you high-lighted is not a mistake, or am I wrong?? )

To be honest: I don't get your problem. You say you did not translate the rules, but only correct them without knowing the game. So, probably you even improved this (very bad) piece of written language. Fine. Why are you annoyed when it is not your fault? Did I mention your name? Seems I blame the original translator and not you.

Anyway, three facts remain:
1) The rules are very bad
2) The german rules are even worse than the English ones
3) It is not ok to publish a game in this (rules) quality, and take money from customers for something like that, and then need 3 (or more?) month to correct that. Poorly done. Want my money back!
4) The game is not overly complex. You will see that once you start learning Magic Realm

Cheers, Volker
 
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M. S.
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Quote:
While I am not an English native speaker, you are a german native speaker. So correcting my English-mistakes is probably not suitable... (and the one you high-lighted is not a mistake, or am I wrong?? )


The thing is, and that`s why I highlighted this word: Errors can occur, even if you are a native speaker. But you are right: There is no fault in your sentence I just referred the sentence to "the rules" and not to "your header"....so my fault

But coming back to the main issue:

First of all, I`ve explained to you, how those faults could occur/happen.
It`s of course also me, that you are pointing on, since Alek translated the rules from polish and I`ve checked them for consistency, logic errors and all the rest.....and that`s why I had given you some more details on the background of such a rule translation process, since it was a very time consuming process. It`s not, that one is translating the rules in one evening and that`s it.....

The fact is:
1) the rules (engl/german/polish) could be better....for sure
2) the german rules are of the same quality like the english rules. I`ve crosschecked them, when I also finally got the game at Essen and played it afterwards...so I couldn`t find any significant difference (from a quality point of view):
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4179646#4179646
So, if you`re focused on the german rules, it would be helpful, if you could provide me any examples, where the english rules are better than the german ones...?!

The fact is (in my point of view): One is able to understand the game with the existing german rules. I`m just a "normal" person and had no problems in understanding the game (please keep in mind, that I got the game 3 weeks after correcting the rules and played it the first time just a couple of weeks ago). Only in the case of specific rule questions, one can often find inaccuracies/inexactness...and that`s the point, where the FAQ`s come into play....There are a lot of uncertainties, when finaly playing the game and having specific questions on specific actions -> that should be improved in the new rules

In my point of view, the game is complex, but not difficult: "Complex", because, there are a lot of strategic possibilities one can do, but the game is never "difficult", since the actions themselves are "clear".

Quote:
To be honest: I don't get your problem. You say you did not translate the rules, but only correct them without knowing the game. So, probably you even improved this (very bad) piece of written language. Fine. Why are you annoyed when it is not your fault? Did I mention your name? Seems I blame the original translator and not you.


To be honest: You can write what you want and it could be your opinion, that the rules are very bad and that the translator did a bad "job", but, since I helped in the rule translation process and since you also mentioned the grammatical errors in there, it`s on me, to explain you, how this could happen. Now you can try to understand that, or just ignore that...it`s up to you....I only wanted to make you a little bit more sensitive on the work and process behind it.... Please also keep in mind, that the rules consist of 20 pages. So it`s not comparable to a rule book like for example "Keltis" or "Hase und Igel". ...and, in my point of view, it`s a game for gamers and not a "standard familiy game". So it`s per se a more complex and substantial rule book.

Honestly spoken: In my point of view, your comments are not of a good style, since they are finger pointing on somebody, in a way I don`t like.
There are a lot of german guys, who finally managed to play the game with the existing german rules.

So, I realy don`t understand, why you are not able to understand the game with the existing german rules, although you mentioned, that you`re somebody, whose playing a lot of games...

The rules are much better than there reputation.

-> Just give the game (and also the rules) a chance .... I love this game: Try to understand the german rulebook, while playing the game, use the "Defender`s book" or "Invader`s book", since they already include improvements, and in specific cases read the FAQ`s....that`s it. meeple
-> I can promise you: You won`t regret it


Regards,
Mario

 
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Volker Hirscher
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Hi again, my last post on this issue.

I understand how this all could happen. Then again, I do not understand why these things happen. If the timeframe was too short: Don't release and unfinished product and count on the understanding of the customers. I am not an understanding customer.

And yes, you are right, one is able to understand the game. I am also. But it requires FAQ, it requires downloaded player aids, and finally much more time that is usually needed for a game of medium complexity. Why? Because the rules do not apply to common quality standards for game rules of today. Nothing to discuss here.

And no, I usually don't do finger-pointing. But in this case I was really bothered. My words may be a bit rude, sorry for that. But anyway, I am right - the rules are bad. Ask many others round here. This is criticism, and I think you should take that if you can. Instead of saying "the rules are not bad", something like "sorry that the rules are so bad" would have been more to my liking and of many others who would not have spent their money for this game if they had known before.

A few examples where the german rules are worse than the English ones:
1) Vorfeld 1 und 2 instead of actual translations (quite confusing)
2) Grammar mistakes everywhere... my main gripe with the translation
3) P. 50: While the english rules clearly state that the single "dispatch" steps happen one after the other by saying "then", the german rules say "und", which implied that they can happen in any order
4) P.42, board sides: English rules say: No Invader unit may be transferred to the other side - the german rules do not mention that this rule only affects the invader and so cause confusion, once again.

There are many more, but that has to suffice for now, as long as I am getting payed for searching

Quote:
The rules are much better than there reputation.


Sorry. They are not. Over and out.
 
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M. S.
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Quote:
And no, I usually don't do finger-pointing. But in this case I was really bothered. My words may be a bit rude, sorry for that.


Again: I don´t like that style of finger pointing and the way you argumented in this thread -> As I said: It`s a bad style. A wording like: "In my opinion, the german rules are realy worse" is much more preferable, than blaming everybody in a way, that is only used in the anonymity of the internet.

But, since you have apologized for that....forget about it


Quote:
This is criticism, and I think you should take that if you can. Instead of saying "the rules are not bad", something like "sorry that the rules are so bad" would have been more to my liking and of many others who would not have spent their money for this game if they had known before.


Volker, again: Why should I apologize myself for the way the rules are at the moment?! I haven`t received any money for helping with the translation -> I only had spent my spare time after my usual work in order to get the german rules done till Essen. Whithout that, I`m almost for sure, that nobody would own the game in the german language at the moment. AND I`m realy of the opinion, that the rules are better than their reputation (this is in my point of view the truth)

I only can/would apologize for that, when:
1) I had received some money for that
2) I delivered deliberately the rules in a bad wording
3) the version of rules would be my final and last correction (which was not the case, as I wrote)

I think, that you`re realy going to far right now.
A good advice would be: Just think of it, wait some minutes and start writing afterwards.....It`s now the third time, when I was reading your written words and rubbing my eyes, thinking:"Well, did he realy said this...?" shake

Since at the moment the discussion is getting a little bit ridiculous, I will also stop argumentation, as you may understand

Anyway: I wish you a lot of fun with the game!

Regards
Mario


--------------------------------------------------------
P.S. ah...and to your points

Quote:
) Vorfeld 1 und 2 instead of actual translations (quite confusing)

I defined another wording -> it was not implemented in the actual rule book, since it was not prefered!

Quote:

2) Grammar mistakes everywhere... my main gripe with the translation

as I already told you: My last corrections were not taken into account. When you`re correcing a text in a word file and a lot of words, sentences etc. are changing (based on your corrections) and colored in red, it`s quite comprehensible, that one isn`t focused on comma rules or s.th. else at that point.....

Quote:

3) P. 50: While the english rules clearly state that the single "dispatch" steps happen one after the other by saying "then", the german rules say "und", which implied that they can happen in any order


To be honest: They can move in any order BUT one army can only move 1 step. So it is easier to follow, when you start moving your armies in the order, that is given in the german rule book, starting from the "Vorfeld II", continuing with the "Vorfeld I" and finally ending at the camp.

So honestly speaking: The german rules are not incorrect in there!

Quote:

4) P.42, board sides: English rules say: No Invader unit may be transferred to the other side - the german rules do not mention that this rule only affects the invader and so cause confusion, once again.

In the german rulebook this point is more general, saying, that no marker can change sides....but I think, that when following the rules on page 52 one can easily understand, that the defender can do this via using the courtyard...or it should be also quite easy to understand this rule issue, when reading the rules on how to move the invader armies.....
Latest at that timepoint, one could recognize, that the invader armies only follow the movement via paths (or via training).

 
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Michael Gill
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Mario,

Let me see if I can summarize your initial post:

Three weeks before Essen, you received a 20 page Word document translated into German by Portal. As a favor, since no cash was involved, without having played the game, no game board in hand, and with no visual aids, you were asked to verify that a complicated set of rules were comprehensible, grammatically correct, readable, and accurate. This was accomplished during the midnight hours and fast enough to receive a corrected copy 2 weeks before Essen, which you proofread and returned so quickly that the printer’s proofs, still containing errors, were in your hands 10 days before the main event. More corrections are made and the final version arrives the day before the print run, still containing errors. Corrections are, so to speak, scribbled on the margins and returned with a wing and a prayer.

That sounds like a daunting and thankless, task, which makes you, sir, a hero.

A further post indicates that you later cross-checked the German version against the English rules. Did you have a copy of the original rules (in Polish, I believe) to consult during your corrections?

Thanks for post: it is always interesting to peek behind the scenes and see how the gaming world works.
 
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Hi Michael,

Quote:
A further post indicates that you later cross-checked the German version against the English rules. Did you have a copy of the original rules (in Polish, I believe) to consult during your corrections?


To the process: No, it was not me, who translated the game from polish to german. I could do this based on an english version, but not based on a polish version. That`s why there are 2 guys mentioned in the german rulebook: Alek, who translated polish -> german, and me, who was correcting the german translation. Since Alek is not a German native speaker, but also since rules are like a wording of a law, you have to go through the rules in a very critical way. Of course, the "critical way" is relative, when not having the game itself or any pictures from the game in front of you and only try to imagine the gameplay and specific game situations by yourself.

I`ve crosschecked the rules, when finally got the game after the Essen fair and played it for the very first time a couple of weeks before (so, mid of January I played the game for the very first time. So I was a little bit forewarned based on the feedback of several BGG users......but finally was suprized, because the reading of the rules was finally better than expected ...and I`m usually very selfcritical...so I would honestly say it, if the game would be realy impossible to play with the existing german rules -> in my point of view: This is not the case!). BUT at that timepoint I also noticed, that there are some inaccurate formulations in the rule book .... so I wanted to check those german rules with the english ones.....and ...again: Couldn`t find any significant difference to the german rules...what...of course...makes the rules in general not better...

To your summary:
It´s 100% correct. This was the way it happened...at least from my point of view. But since the reading of rules means "fun" and not an annoying "job" for me, it was far away from a thankless task. But I wouldn`t do it again like this, since the timeframe was realy a very critical point in this case.
One should have enough time to clarify uncertain rule points/questions with the developer. One should also have enough time to look over the final version in order to correct grammatical issues, that you can`t do in an ordinary word file, that has a lot of red colored and corrected sentences and changes in between a sentence....
You only got an overall picture of the rules, when finally having those rules (including pictures from the game and game components etc.) in an almost final format like "pdf" in front of you. At that moment you can correct grammatical issues.....it`s almost impossible to focus on those issues on a very early "pre-format"-stage....


Regards
Mario

 
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Volker Hirscher
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Quote:
In the german rulebook this point is more general, saying, that no marker can change sides....but I think, that when following the rules on page 52 one can easily understand, that the defender can do this via using the courtyard...or it should be also quite easy to understand this rule issue, when reading the rules on how to move the invader armies.....
Latest at that timepoint, one could recognize, that the invader armies only follow the movement via paths (or via training).


Yeah, cool, I feel back in school, interpreting lyric texts
 
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Andrew DiGregorio
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i have to agree. im working thru the English rules now and they are abysmal.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Thanks Andrew. But read the posts above: The rules are not bad. How dare you say?

Ok, seems Mario got me back here, with hist not really friendly post.

Quote:
than blaming everybody in a way that is only used in the anonymity of the internet.


Don't make assumptions. If I had met you, I would have said the same. And btw, it is NOT good style, when someone said "sorry for the choice of words", to repeat "Oh, you're so bad" and so on.....- "but I accept your excuse". I do not like this style - not from you, not from my wife (if she behaved like that). And another "by the way": We have freedom of thoughts and speech here. And everywhere else (well, maybe not, but it is a shame...).

Quote:
I think, that you`re realy going to far right now.


??? By saing... what? "The rules are bad"?

Quote:
Since at the moment the discussion is getting a little bit ridiculous, I will also stop argumentation


I don't think you started, so... Just my opinion.

Ok, to end this tragedy of human feelings, let's sum it up.
1) I did not blame you for the rules. If you would take your time to read my posts (as you said I should), you would have understood that I blame the one who wrote the rules. Obviously, you made things rather better than worse, though they did not really let you. Anyway, good job. I don't want to know the state the rules were in BEFORE your corrections. You even said your corrections did not make it in - so why do you care when I say "the rules are bad"?
2) You asked me for examples, I gave you a few. Could have been a dozen more. But that's not the point: Discussing examples is just useless, as you should know as a well-educated german "Ingenieur".
3) Just once again: Other guys would have said something like "well, it was not really my fault, but my name is on it - so I want to let you know the background. Hoping for your understanding"...
4) You keep saying "my stuff did not make it in" and so on, still you defend the rules. Why? I don't understand. I don't care. I have to stop reading this thread - it seems to easy to provoke me. So, have fun!

One last hint: Self-criticism is usually appreciated in life. I wrote a rude post, you wrote bad rules (you did not really, I know). I accept it, you don't.

Now I'll stop wasting our time (cause that's what it is, wasting your time, my time, and the time of all the people reading this worthless conversation of ours!)

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Michal Bronkowski
Poland
Krakow
Malopolska
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mb
mavo wrote:

Now I'll stop wasting our time (cause that's what it is, wasting your time, my time, and the time of all the people reading this worthless conversation of ours!)


Yes you both do that please... I will appreciate it ;-)
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