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Subject: T&E Online at BGG - Hidden VPs? rss

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Jim bo
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Hi,

I'm fairly new to the game but have read through the rules a couple of times, gleamed some good tips from the forums and have put myself down for an online game at BGG.

Just out of interest, what's the point in having Hidden VPs? Can't anyone simply read through the game log and total up exactly how many VPs each player has in each colour or am I missing something?

 
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Marshall P.
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The game log is truncated in hidden VP games. You could keep a side record as the game goes along. I've played over 200 hidden VP games and I've never done it. It's just not worth the effort. It's not life or death. And I don't like to have the knowledge of other player's scores influencing my decisions.
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Rob Rob
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Same as in a real life F2F game. Yes, you could track each cube your opponents gather but the likelihood is you will not be as precise and the amount of effort to be precise would significantly detract from your game play.
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Jim bo
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Sure but at least in F2F games you can make an agreement with the other players not to keep a physical record and you can quite clearly see if anyone starts writing down notes on a piece of paper, mobile phone or whatever.

I don't have any issues in F2F with someone trying to remember the scores or at least keep a rough idea in their head (that's simply part of the game like most board/card games imo) but if there's the possibility like in PBF/PBEM modes of play of someone keeping an accurate record without anyone knowing then I don't see why players wouldn't simply agree to make it open information so it's a level playing field unless of course you're playing with a group that trust each other implicitly.

mdp4828 wrote:
And I don't like to have the knowledge of other player's scores influencing my decisions.

That's an interesting view.

If it's late game, things are tight and you have the opportunity to advance your position and screw over one of the other players, surely it's in your interests to know the current scores to ensure you hinder your nearest rival rather than someone that's less likely to win?
 
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Marshall P.
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Yojimbo252 wrote:

If it's late game, things are tight and you have the opportunity to advance your position and screw over one of the other players, surely it's in your interests to know the current scores to ensure you hinder your nearest rival rather than someone that's less likely to win?


Surely. But if you don't have that accurate knowledge then you must make your decisions based on some other principle. T&E is a game of risk and uncertainty, I like it that way.
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Jim bo
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mdp4828 wrote:
Yojimbo252 wrote:

If it's late game, things are tight and you have the opportunity to advance your position and screw over one of the other players, surely it's in your interests to know the current scores to ensure you hinder your nearest rival rather than someone that's less likely to win?


Surely. But if you don't have that accurate knowledge then you must make your decisions based on some other principle. T&E is a game of risk and uncertainty, I like it that way.

Agreed and I do prefer games that way but if that is to be then it ought to be a level playing field where either everyone or no one knows the exact score.

Hence the reason for the original post and why players would choose the 'Hidden' option which may give rise to unfairness.

 
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Jamie Pollock
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I find both options (open vs hidden scoring) are equally good ways to play T&E simply because they offer completely different experiences and neither one is better than the other. Instead, think of it as 2 games for the price of 1!

With open scoring everyone knows everyone's business. In theory, player decisions should be easier, assuming playing for 1st place is the sole objective of course. As the game nears the end, it's obviously much easier for players to gauge whether they can trigger one of the end game conditions and come out top. To some, that's a reasonable detraction. For me, when I play upwards of 50 online games at a time, remembering how each game's gone from turn to turn can be very tricky. So, in this case, open scoring can be very helpful!

However, if I was playing f2f with experienced players, or playing only 1 or 2 games online at a time, I'd probably go with closed scoring as per the rules. As Marshall P. stated above, "T&E is a game of risk and uncertainty," and closed scoring certainly emphasizes and embraces this!
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Jim bo
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Jambo wrote:
However, if I was playing f2f with experienced players, or playing only 1 or 2 games online at a time, I'd probably go with closed scoring as per the rules. As Marshall P. stated above, "T&E is a game of risk and uncertainty," and closed scoring certainly emphasizes and embraces this!

I think people are perhaps missing the point I'm trying to make.

I have no issue with the ideal of closed scoring. The issue is when it can't be enforced and there is room for someone to 'cheat' by secretly keeping an accurate score.

Like I said I don't have an issue with closed scoring in F2F games but with PBF / PBEM type games there's little point imo because you can't stop someone keeping an accurate total secretly.

And this isn't just in relation to T&E, it pretty much applies to any game that has a non-random closed scoring element when transformed to PBF / PBEM.

A good example is when we started playing Small World PBF. A rule in the standard F2F version is that VPs are hidden. But we saw little point in trying to enforce this for PBF because there was no way to prevent someone keeping a secret total. So we decided to make it open information so no one was disadvantaged.

Now one could argue that takes a bit of the shine away from the game and to some extent they'd be right, but at least it'd be a fair game and those playing honestly wouldn't be disadvantaged by someone that may be playing 'dishonestly'.
 
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Marshall P.
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Yojimbo252 wrote:

I have no issue with the ideal of closed scoring. The issue is when it can't be enforced and there is room for someone to 'cheat' by secretly keeping an accurate score.


In my experience people simply don't do this. I guess I just don't see it as a big deal.
 
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Marshall P.
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Yojimbo252 wrote:
mdp4828 wrote:
Yojimbo252 wrote:

If it's late game, things are tight and you have the opportunity to advance your position and screw over one of the other players, surely it's in your interests to know the current scores to ensure you hinder your nearest rival rather than someone that's less likely to win?


Surely. But if you don't have that accurate knowledge then you must make your decisions based on some other principle. T&E is a game of risk and uncertainty, I like it that way.

Agreed and I do prefer games that way but if that is to be then it ought to be a level playing field where either everyone or no one knows the exact score.

Hence the reason for the original post and why players would choose the 'Hidden' option which may give rise to unfairness.



Well, T&E is already unfair no matter which scoring is used. The first player has a significant advantage. Players that draw more red tiles tend to have an advantage.

I choose to play hidden scoring online because that's how I play face to face and I like to go through the same thought process where I don't make decisions based on exact knowledge of player's scores. I don't think very many people "cheat" because most people are playing multiple games and it would be a lot of work. Most people are just playing casual "fire and forget" type games.
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Jamie Pollock
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mdp4828 wrote:
I don't think very many people "cheat" because most people are playing multiple games and it would be a lot of work. Most people are just playing casual "fire and forget" type games.


This would be my impression as well. I mean, what a lot of unfun work for what... an slight edge here or there...? I don't think people generally care that much for casual games but no doubt there is probably one who does!

Having said that, I do believe this was one of the main reasons why the T&E league opted to run with open scoring.

Edit: Also, as Marshall again astutely says, there is an inherent imbalance in T&E anyway, where the 1st player (Lion online) has a noticeable advantage over the other players, with the 4th player (Goat online) being the most disadvantaged of all!

Either way, the decision is yours. If you're worried about people tallying scores when playing closed scoring games, don't play in closed scoring games. Simples!

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Jamie Pollock
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One last thing - you'd need each of your 3 opponents to be secretly tallying in the closed scoring for it to be truly unfair. The one person tallying is still going to be subjected to the other players' whims based on their 'interpretations' of how everyone is doing. I can't count how many times if I'd done something different at the end of a closed scoring game, I would have ended up winning. Misinformed plays like this are only going to confound, and most likely irritate, a player who's playing with perfect knowledge.
 
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Jim bo
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Fair points.

I didn't want to make it sound like a big deal either, I'm only a fairly casual boardgamer and am very new to T&E anyway so I'm here purely for enjoyment.

It was more a 'just out of interest question'. In any case thanks for the responses.

And Jamie don't think that I've forgotten about Endeavor PBF 7
 
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Jamie Pollock
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And I didn't count scores in that PBF game either! ninja

(far too much work)

I'd be happy for you to exact your revenge in online T&E ! :@)
 
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Jim bo
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Jambo wrote:
I'd be happy for you to exact your revenge in online T&E ! :@)

Ok I'll take you up on that:

BGG Online Game ID:57396
 
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Stian Kristiansen
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Jambo wrote:
mdp4828 wrote:
I don't think very many people "cheat" because most people are playing multiple games and it would be a lot of work. Most people are just playing casual "fire and forget" type games.


This would be my impression as well. I mean, what a lot of unfun work for what... an slight edge here or there...? I don't think people generally care that much for casual games but no doubt there is probably one who does!



I am a fairly competitive person, but I agree with this. Turning the last few turns into a "counting feast" isn't something I want to do, so I prefer hidden VPs. If the other players want to use the log that is really fine by me, as long as I may enjoy the whole game without not quite knowing the scores. Sure, it'll lose me a game from time to time, (like the last game vs Jambo and others for instance), but I'm okay with that.
 
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