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Subject: The Meaning of "Attack" rss

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Jeremy Lennert
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OK, as I currently understand it, the word "attack" has three completely separate, technical meanings in the Thunderstone rules:

1) Attack is a numerical value that is compared to a monster's health in order to determine whether you defeat it in battle. This is referred to as "attack value" in the rulebook (p. 10-11), but just "attack" on the cards.
Example: The Militia card gives Attack +1.
Source: Thunderstone Rulebook, pages 10-11.

2) Attacking is a process by which a hero participates in the battle with a monster. If a hero is unable to "attack" a monster, this negates not only the hero's attack value (definition 1), but all of the hero's effects, such as light, as if the hero wasn't even in the player's hand.
Example: A Feayn Archer cannot attack rank 1, and therefore provides neither the usual +2 attack (value) nor 1 light if a battle takes place at rank 1.
Source: http://www.geekdo.com/thread/485203/haunt-and-hero-with-ligh...

3) Attacking is a process by which a player chooses a specific monster to engage in combat during a dungeon action. If a monster cannot be "attacked", this means the player cannot even choose to do battle with it--even if there are no monsters at all that he can attack! And you can be prevented from initiating a battle with a monster due to--wait for it--that monster's "Battle" effect! Which means that "Battle" effects can actually occur before a battle. Or you can be retroactively prevented from initiating a battle due to a battle effect. Or something.
Example: A Blink Dog (Enchanted monster) cannot be attacked if a light penalty persists.
Source: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/465179/question-about-bl...


OK, I realize that overloading a word with multiple meanings is a really easy mistake to make when writing the rules for a game. I've done it myself. It's also really hard to change once the game is printed. But it's also a significant barrier to understanding, so I want to make sure I have all the details squared away here. Are these definitions all correct? Are there any additional definitions of "attack" that I have overlooked?

Some potential problem situations occur to me:

- I draw an Elf Archmage as the only hero in my hand. I want to use its "DUNGEON" ability to "return one Monster to bottom of deck and refill the hall before the beginning of a battle," and then attack a Haunt, which makes it as if one hero (which must be the Elf Archmage) isn't even in my hand. Legal?

- I have no weapons, but I have a Regian Bishop, and I invoke it's "DUNGEON" ability to draw two cards, and happen to draw a Dagger. I then attack a Darkness ("Battle: Unequipped Heroes cannot attack."), which would have prevent me from using my Regian Bishop at all, but I now have a Dagger to equip on him so that I can use him. Legal?

- If your answer to the above questions is that "DUNGEON" abilities should still work even if the hero can't attack (possibly because they take place before the actual battle), then I draw a Chalice Defender, with the ability "DUNGEON: Attack +1 for each Item that produces Light." Can I use that ability if the Chalice Defender can't attack?

- If I attack a Haunt in rank 1 with a Feayn Archer and another hero, can I choose the Feayn Archer as the hero that cannot attack due to the Haunt's effect, even though he is already prevented from attacking by his own card text?

- If I attack a Revenant in rank 1 with a Feayn Archer, does he get destroyed (after having his strength reduced to zero) even though he isn't "involved" in the fight? Can I target him with an Iron Ration to keep his strength up and avoid having him destroyed?
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Pei Kong
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So from what I gather of the rules I know, thus far (3 plays, taught a couple other players, and read a bunch of posts) this is what I believe to be the course of action for each situation:

- Elf Archmage/Haunt: Because the Archmage's ability is used prior to the actual battle, whether or not he is used in whatever battle you choose doesn't affect his ability. Why? Because, let's say you choose to move a monster back into the dungeon and you flip over a monster that you would like to fight. I assume that you are allowed to choose the recently-flipped-over monster to battle, because "before battle" seems to include the declaration of what monster you are fighting.
In which case, going back to your situation, the Haunt's ability to force a Hero not to participate has no affect with an Archmage's ability to monster cycle, because, at the point where the Archmage's ability has completed, the user has not yet declared a fight.

- Regian Bishop/Darkness: Again, I assume that the ability to draw cards takes place before the fight begins, although you are committed to attacking the Darkness prior to drawing the card. I feel the purpose of drawing cards during the Dungeon phase is to gamble, among the other purposes.
Also, technically speaking, because you draw a card during the battle, you are MUST use those cards to assist in fighting the monster. This should include equipping any newly-attained weapons.

- Non-attacking Chalice Defender: In this scenario, you're dealing with an effect that involves attack power. I'm under the impression that when an effect increases/decreases attack power, the Hero in question must be involved in the battle. Therefore his Attack +1 per Light Item does not apply because he is not involved in the fight (not providing any assistance to the current situation).

- Haunt Lvl. 1/Feayn Archer: In this scenario, I believe any Hero affect that is determines eligibility to fight goes first. So the Feayn Archer does not count as a Hero in the battle vs the Haunt. Therefore neither the Archer (because of his innate ineligibility) nor the other hero (because of the Haunt's ability) can participate in the battle.

- Revenant Lvl. 1/Feayn Archer: Again, the Hero eligibility affect goes first, which means the Archer was not a participant in the fight, therefore does not get affected by the Revenant's Dungeon ability. Unless, the ability states that all Heroes, even those that did not participate, are involved. I would assume you would see something like "Heroes in your hand" type of text. In any case, even if the Archer is affected by the ability somehow, you would be able to attach a Ration to him.
 
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Andy Pelton
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Antistone wrote:
OK, as I currently understand it, the word "attack" has three completely separate, technical meanings in the Thunderstone rules:

2) Attacking is a process by which a hero participates in the battle with a monster. If a hero is unable to "attack" a monster, this negates not only the hero's attack value (definition 1), but all of the hero's effects, such as light, as if the hero wasn't even in the player's hand.
Example: A Feayn Archer cannot attack rank 1, and therefore provides neither the usual +2 attack (value) nor 1 light if a battle takes place at rank 1.
Source: http://www.geekdo.com/thread/485203/haunt-and-hero-with-ligh...


We have been playing it as even tho the archer can not 'do damage' to rank one, the light bonus still stands.

Antistone wrote:

Some potential problem situations occur to me:

- I draw an Elf Archmage as the only hero in my hand. I want to use its "DUNGEON" ability to "return one Monster to bottom of deck and refill the hall before the beginning of a battle," and then attack a Haunt, which makes it as if one hero (which must be the Elf Archmage) isn't even in my hand. Legal?


Dungeon Effects are played out 1st after you reveal your hand, so you may draw cards for the clerics ability, the Thyrian Lord may choose to take a Monster from the hall 1st, Banish may be used to re-arrange the hall. Battle Effects come after this (Usually)

Antistone wrote:

- I have no weapons, but I have a Regian Bishop, and I invoke it's "DUNGEON" ability to draw two cards, and happen to draw a Dagger. I then attack a Darkness ("Battle: Unequipped Heroes cannot attack."), which would have prevent me from using my Regian Bishop at all, but I now have a Dagger to equip on him so that I can use him. Legal?


Yes, perfectly legal. The drawing cards from clerics in the dungeon adds an element of chance as if you think you stand a good chance of drawing good card from your deck, you then equip it before declaring what you are to 'attack'

Antistone wrote:

- If your answer to the above questions is that "DUNGEON" abilities should still work even if the hero can't attack (possibly because they take place before the actual battle), then I draw a Chalice Defender, with the ability "DUNGEON: Attack +1 for each Item that produces Light." Can I use that ability if the Chalice Defender can't attack?


yes. If you had 3 light producing cards you would get +3 ATTACK.

Antistone wrote:

- If I attack a Haunt in rank 1 with a Feayn Archer and another hero, can I choose the Feayn Archer as the hero that cannot attack due to the Haunt's effect, even though he is already prevented from attacking by his own card text?


Yes.

Antistone wrote:

- If I attack a Revenant in rank 1 with a Feayn Archer, does he get destroyed (after having his strength reduced to zero) even though he isn't "involved" in the fight? Can I target him with an Iron Ration to keep his strength up and avoid having him destroyed?


Yes, As the Archer is in your hand he is susceptible to 'BATTLE' effects and can be destroyed and yes you can use Iron Rations on him.

The cards in your hand when you enter the dungeon are your 'PARTY' they all take part in the skirmish that will happen, even if the target monster/rank can not be 'attacked' by that Hero. So effects from the battle still take place.

Below is the Dungeon Action structure I have been using and Mike Elliot told me it is essentially correct when I mailed him about some clarifications.

Reveal Hand
Receive cards (From Clerics if applicable)
Assign Weapons
Activate Spells
play dungeon abilities
Choose Monster
Resolve Battle Abilities and calculate attack value - Light, Strength and Attack Value Modifiers
If Won - Receive Monster and Spoils
If Lost - Monster Retreats to Bottom of Dungeon
Receive Disease cards (if applicable)
Resolve Battle Abilities - Any Weapons and Heroes are destroyed as part of battle. (if applicable)

Apparently the new sequence will be in the next edition of the rule book, the above is essentially correct.

I'm nothing to do with AEG, my comments are my understanding on how the rules should work (I hope I have got most of them correct )

Andy.
 
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Slyintine wrote:

- Elf Archmage/Haunt: Because the Archmage's ability is used prior to the actual battle, whether or not he is used in whatever battle you choose doesn't affect his ability. Why? Because, let's say you choose to move a monster back into the dungeon and you flip over a monster that you would like to fight. I assume that you are allowed to choose the recently-flipped-over monster to battle, because "before battle" seems to include the declaration of what monster you are fighting.
In which case, going back to your situation, the Haunt's ability to force a Hero not to participate has no affect with an Archmage's ability to monster cycle, because, at the point where the Archmage's ability has completed, the user has not yet declared a fight.

- Regian Bishop/Darkness: Again, I assume that the ability to draw cards takes place before the fight begins, although you are committed to attacking the Darkness prior to drawing the card. I feel the purpose of drawing cards during the Dungeon phase is to gamble, among the other purposes.
Also, technically speaking, because you draw a card during the battle, you are MUST use those cards to assist in fighting the monster. This should include equipping any newly-attained weapons.

- Non-attacking Chalice Defender: In this scenario, you're dealing with an effect that involves attack strength. I'm under the impression that when an effect increases/decreases attack strength, the Hero in question must be involved in the battle. Therefore his Attack +1 per Light Item does not apply because he is not involved in the fight (not providing any assistance to the current situation).

- Haunt Lvl. 1/Feayn Archer: In this scenario, I believe any Hero affect that is determines eligibility to fight goes first. So the Feayn Archer does not count as a Hero in the battle vs the Haunt. Therefore neither the Archer (because of his innate ineligibility) nor the other hero (because of the Haunt's ability) can participate in the battle.

- Revenant Lvl. 1/Feayn Archer: Again, the Hero eligibility affect goes first, which means the Archer was not a participant in the fight, therefore does not get affected by the Revenant's Dungeon ability. Unless, the ability states that all Heroes, even those that did not participate, are involved. I would assume you would see something like "Heroes in your hand" type of text. In any case, even if the Archer is affected by the ability somehow, you would be able to attach a Ration to him.


I agree on all fronts except for the MUST use all cards drawn. This, i'm pretty sure, will be changing in the new rules. You MUST reveal all cards, but the only cards it is REQUIRED you use are cards with negative effects.

As for the Archer...he is already eliminated from the battle, so the effect from the Haunt would be IN ADDITION to heroes who couldn't normally attack. Same goes for the Revenant's effect. Since the Archer wasn't in the battle, I'd go so far as to say he wouldn't be affected. I'm going to submit this to the developers, however, for clarification.
 
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slaqr wrote:

As for the Archer...he is already eliminated from the battle, so the effect from the Haunt would be IN ADDITION to heroes who couldn't normally attack. Same goes for the Revenant's effect. Since the Archer wasn't in the battle, I'd go so far as to say he wouldn't be affected. I'm going to submit this to the developers, however, for clarification.


Quoting myself here, because I was partially wrong. I've spoken to Jim on this and here is the situation:

Archer/Haunt - I was correct, since the Archer already CANNOT attack the Haunt in rank 1, you must choose a different (additional) hero to be left out of attacking this round.

Archer/Revenant - I was wrong. Even though the Archer cannot attack, he was considered to have entered the dungeon. For this reason, the effect of the Revenant still takes place on the Archer. Thus, unless his strength were to be increased by Iron Rations or Feast or...whatever, he will die at the end of the battle.
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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Slaqr: You went to the designer for clarification, but only asked about some of the questions?

Given your two answers, how exactly am I supposed to generalize? He's affected by the Revenant, I can choose for him to be the one and only hero affected by Iron Rations, but I can't choose for him to be the hero affected by the Haunt. Assuming I don't have a huge list that tells me the answer for every possible card combination in the game, how do I decide when I run across a new card whether it behaves like the Iron Rations or the Haunt? Both of them affect one hero of my choice, neither of them specifically say that they can or cannot affect a hero that isn't attacking, so what's the difference?

For example, when I fight a monster that says it destroys one hero, can I pick a hero that didn't attack? I don't know.


Peltazoid: Telling me that you've been playing it in a way that directly contradicts a developer answer doesn't seem to give me any relevant information. Am I missing something?

How can activating spells possibly happen after receiving cards in the sequence when some spells cause you to receive cards? (Arcane Energies, Magical Aura)



Slyintine: Your answers are apparently based on the fact that some heroes' "DUNGEON" abilities happen before battle and others happen during battle, and either is possible if the ability itself doesn't specify (you ruled the Regian Bishop's card draws before battle and the Chalice Defender's attack bonus as during). How am I supposed to tell which is which?

Also, why am I committed to attacking the Darkness in example 2 before I even draw cards? If the battle hasn't started, why couldn't I choose to attack a different monster? If the battle has started, why am I able to use the unequipped hero at all?

Also, isn't the terminology here already confusing enough without referring to "attack value" as "attack strength"? Strength already has a completely different meaning.
 
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Antistone wrote:
Slaqr: You went to the designer for clarification, but only asked about some of the questions?

Given your two answers, how exactly am I supposed to generalize? He's affected by the Revenant, I can choose for him to be the one and only hero affected by Iron Rations, but I can't choose for him to be the hero affected by the Haunt. Assuming I don't have a huge list that tells me the answer for every possible card combination in the game, how do I decide when I run across a new card whether it behaves like the Iron Rations or the Haunt? Both of them affect one hero of my choice, neither of them specifically say that they can or cannot affect a hero that isn't attacking, so what's the difference?

For example, when I fight a monster that says it destroys one hero, can I pick a hero that didn't attack? I don't know.


No, I only asked the questions I didn't explicitly know the answers to.

The order of events will be clarified in new rules. This will straighten up a lot of the issues. I already mentioned that I agreed with Peltazoid on the other points. Items can affect any hero you chose them to. If you chose not to attack with a Hero whom you have use an item on, good for you...you can make that choice. You CAN'T choose for the Archer to be affected by the Haunt because the Haunts position ALREADY precludes the Archer from entering the fight. Really, this is an OBVIOUS decision. The over-analyzation comes in to affect because you WANT the Archer to be the the target of the Haunts ability (Thus allowing you to use all your other heroes), not because he SHOULD be allowed to be the target (which he shouldn't, because he is already eliminated as a fighter). Applied logic leads to this obvious conclusion.
 
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Antistone wrote:
Peltazoid: Telling me that you've been playing it in a way that directly contradicts a developer answer doesn't seem to give me any relevant information. Am I missing something?

How can activating spells possibly happen after receiving cards in the sequence when some spells cause you to receive cards? (Arcane Energies, Magical Aura)


I forgot when I wrote the mail to Mike including that sequence that some spells give you cards.

I seems resonable to me (this needs clarifying and as slaqr says that the new rules will (should ) clarify the dungeon sequence) that the 1st few steps after revealing are a loop

such as

Reveal Hand
Draw Cards
Assign Weapons
Activate Spells
play dungeon abilities from cards

Choose Monster
Resolve Battle Abilities and calculate attack value - Light, Strength and Attack Value Modifiers
If Won - Receive Monster and Spoils
If Lost - Monster Retreats to Bottom of Dungeon
Receive Disease cards (if applicable)
Resolve Battle Abilities - Any Weapons and Heroes are destroyed as part of battle (if applicable) and collect spoils.

The steps marked in bold can be looped through (effectively played in any order), so say you have a hand of a Regian Bishop, a Chalice Paladin, Torch, Short Sword, Iron Rations, Banish.

You would draw 3 cards (2 from the Regian, 1 from the Paladin. Note that you don't draw a card from Banish at the moment, you would if you activated it) if you then get another Banish, Torch and Arcane Energies you would then draw 2 more cards if you activate those spells (that would be 3 more if the initial Banish was also activated), if you don't want to use them, i.e your attacking a magic immune monster, then you don't get the cards other wise the steps in bold are played though until you are ready to choose a monster.

I hope this makes it a bit clearer.

Andy.
 
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slaqr wrote:
I already mentioned that I agreed with Peltazoid on the other points.

No, you agreed with Slyintine, with whom Peltazoid disagreed. A bunch of people whose names I don't recognize agreeing and disagreeing with each other without actually giving any reason or citing any rule or precedent doesn't give me enormous confidence in any of their answers, as it turns out. Especially when the answers you checked with the designer turned out to be correct no more often than one would expect of random guesses.

slaqr wrote:
You CAN'T choose for the Archer to be affected by the Haunt because the Haunts position ALREADY precludes the Archer from entering the fight. Really, this is an OBVIOUS decision. The over-analyzation comes in to affect because you WANT the Archer to be the the target of the Haunts ability (Thus allowing you to use all your other heroes), not because he SHOULD be allowed to be the target (which he shouldn't, because he is already eliminated as a fighter). Applied logic leads to this obvious conclusion.

No, I absolutely do not care what the answer is. Honest. Any answer could be equally exploited by me and my opponents in a multiplayer game, and if anything I want the solo game to be harder, not easier.

I want to understand why the answer is one thing and not another.

You seem to be arguing that the player who is selecting the target for an effect should be forbidden from choosing a target that makes the effect redundant--the Feayn Archer can't be chosen to be excluded because he is already excluded, and excluding him twice would have no effect. But this is in no way "obvious" to me, nor am I aware of any rule or precedent that would suggest such a prohibition.

It's not necessarily a bad rule. It would probably handle the destruction and discarding of cards fairly nicely, and I can't think of any specific situation off hand where it gives an obviously undesirable result. But it's not a matter of either being obvious or applying logic, it's a completely arbitrary rule that I've never heard of (in Thunderstone) that may or may not exist in this game. I've played other games where such a rule definitely did not exist.

And there are many other possible reasons why the difference might exist: it might be because one is a monster and the other a village card; it might be because one is a "DUNGEON" effect and the other is a "BATTLE" effect; it might be a sequencing issue that will become clear when and if they actually give us any general sequencing rules to go by; it might be that the designer has a giant list in his head of how each card was intended to work that is not actually reflected in the cards themselves in any way. Each of these would lead to different conclusions when analyzing other cards, so I need to know what the rule is, not just what the answer is in one specific special case.

And if I may say so, it's rather odd of you to claim that the answer is obvious immediately after reporting that your original guess at what part of the answer was wrong.
 
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slaqr wrote:
Antistone wrote:
Slaqr: You went to the designer for clarification, but only asked about some of the questions?

Given your two answers, how exactly am I supposed to generalize? He's affected by the Revenant, I can choose for him to be the one and only hero affected by Iron Rations, but I can't choose for him to be the hero affected by the Haunt. Assuming I don't have a huge list that tells me the answer for every possible card combination in the game, how do I decide when I run across a new card whether it behaves like the Iron Rations or the Haunt? Both of them affect one hero of my choice, neither of them specifically say that they can or cannot affect a hero that isn't attacking, so what's the difference?

For example, when I fight a monster that says it destroys one hero, can I pick a hero that didn't attack? I don't know.


No, I only asked the questions I didn't explicitly know the answers to.

The order of events will be clarified in new rules. This will straighten up a lot of the issues. I already mentioned that I agreed with Peltazoid on the other points. Items can affect any hero you chose them to. If you chose not to attack with a Hero whom you have use an item on, good for you...you can make that choice. You CAN'T choose for the Archer to be affected by the Haunt because the Haunts position ALREADY precludes the Archer from entering the fight. Really, this is an OBVIOUS decision. The over-analyzation comes in to affect because you WANT the Archer to be the the target of the Haunts ability (Thus allowing you to use all your other heroes), not because he SHOULD be allowed to be the target (which he shouldn't, because he is already eliminated as a fighter). Applied logic leads to this obvious conclusion.


The difference in handling those two Monsters is confusing as I thought the Archer would have been an eligible target for the Haunts Ability as he is an eligible target for the Revenant. As The Archer is a part of the Dungeon Party and the wording does not indicate only an eligible attacker can not attack in the case of the Haunt. But just checking the Revenant card it does say "all Heroes" which includes non combatants.

This is I think one of the best cases of wording issues I hope V3 of the Manual sorts things out

I also would like to see some reprinted cards to clarify things further.

Andy.
 
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Antistone wrote:

No, you agreed with Slyintine, with whom Peltazoid disagreed. A bunch of people whose names I don't recognize agreeing and disagreeing with each other without actually giving any reason or citing any rule or precedent doesn't give me enormous confidence in any of their answers, as it turns out. Especially when the answers you checked with the designer turned out to be correct no more often than one would expect of random guesses.


If you check my record of posts on Thunderstone related rules topics, i'm sure you'll find i'm right far more than you would expect me to be randomly. You were right in that i actually agreed with Slyintine, I apparently read that wrong. The answer have, indeed, been checked with the developers...you can believe me or not, but I will tell you the corrected rulebook is still in flux, the answers change from time to time.

Antistone wrote:
No, I absolutely do not care what the answer is. Honest. Any answer could be equally exploited by me and my opponents in a multiplayer game, and if anything I want the solo game to be harder, not easier.

I want to understand why the answer is one thing and not another.

You seem to be arguing that the player who is selecting the target for an effect should be forbidden from choosing a target that makes the effect redundant--the Feayn Archer can't be chosen to be excluded because he is already excluded, and excluding him twice would have no effect. But this is in no way "obvious" to me, nor am I aware of any rule or precedent that would suggest such a prohibition.


The reasoning for the ruling is as follows: The archer is already excluded from the battle. Think of it as his weapon doesn't really function in close range combat...therefore he is useless. As this is the case, and assuming the monster can potentially realize this, the monster chooses to target someone else with the ability. Regardless, it doesn't make sense to effect stack when stacking the effects has no additional bonus for the monster. Futhermore, the reasoning for the ruling is that the developers say so.

Antistone wrote:
And if I may say so, it's rather odd of you to claim that the answer is obvious immediately after reporting that your original guess at what part of the answer was wrong.


Actually, if you'll look at the part you are referencing, i was correct from the get go.

slaqr wrote:
As for the Archer...he is already eliminated from the battle, so the effect from the Haunt would be IN ADDITION to heroes who couldn't normally attack.


I stated that since he has already been ruled out of combat, you must target another hero.

The part I was incorrect on is as follows:

slaqr wrote:
Same goes for the Revenant's effect. Since the Archer wasn't in the battle, I'd go so far as to say he wouldn't be affected. I'm going to submit this to the developers, however, for clarification.


This is the part I wasn't sure on, and thus why I asked the developers. This was explained to me as follows: Although the Heroes not in combat aren't fighting, they are still in the dungeon and thus are affected by the monsters Battle effects.

I hope this clears things up. I'm just trying to help out...and my information is reliable.
 
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slaqr wrote:
The reasoning for the ruling is as follows: The archer is already excluded from the battle. Think of it as his weapon doesn't really function in close range combat...therefore he is useless. As this is the case, and assuming the monster can potentially realize this, the monster chooses to target someone else with the ability. Regardless, it doesn't make sense to effect stack when stacking the effects has no additional bonus for the monster.

This is entirely dependent upon the idea that the monster is choosing who to exclude from the combat, which is patently untrue. If that were the case, we'd have to exclude the most effective hero, rather than a hero of the player's choice.

Put another way, if the Haunt is choosing which hero to exclude and being strategic about it, then it makes no sense for the Haunt to exclude a militia and die when it could exclude an Outlands Khan and win--but you presumably have no problem with that..?

If the player can choose to exclude the least effective hero instead of the most effective hero, then pointing out that the Feayn Archer is already useless is an argument for why he should be targeted, not why he shouldn't.

slaqr wrote:
Futhermore, the reasoning for the ruling is that the developers say so.

That may be true, but it's completely useless in extrapolating results to other cards. If the designers expect us to be able to play a game without one of them sitting at the table, I believe it's reasonable to insist that we get general rules that will allow us to interpret the cards, not just arbitrary rulings for the exact specific cases they deign to pontificate upon.

I'm not saying the developers are wrong, I'm saying that the answer hasn't been adequately explained.

Also, if the real reason something works a certain way is that "the developers say so," that automatically disqualifies it from ever being described as "obvious," at least in my book.

slaqr wrote:
Actually, if you'll look at the part you are referencing, i was correct from the get go.

You were apparently correct about the final result in the specific scenario I described. Your explanation of why the Haunt behaves that way was wrong, because the same explanation implied that the Revenant wouldn't affect the Feayn Archer either ("same goes for the Revenant's effect..."), and that conclusion was wrong. Therefore, the principle that you used to decide both cases was flawed, and the fact that you happened to reach the right conclusion in one case was pure happenstance.

You have now presented a completely different justification for the result you predicted in the Haunt scenario, which is also flawed, for reasons discussed above. So whatever reason makes it "obvious" to you what should happen with the Haunt, it's apparently not obvious enough for you to explain it to me or to apply it to any other cards.

slaqr wrote:
I hope this clears things up. I'm just trying to help out...and my information is reliable.

And I'm just trying to understand how the game works. I appreciate your attempt to help me, but I don't think you've been very successful thus far.

And I'm sorry if it seems like I'm judging your credibility harshly, but I've seen a lot of forum rules discussions where someone will jump in and declare a definitive answer and it later turns out he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. In this very thread, we had three people jump in and declare definitive answers, and they didn't agree with each other, so someone must not have reliable information.

If you'd like to avoid the entire issue in the future, I advise you to cite verifiable sources.
 
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Antistone wrote:
Some potential problem situations occur to me:

- I draw an Elf Archmage as the only hero in my hand. I want to use its "DUNGEON" ability to "return one Monster to bottom of deck and refill the hall before the beginning of a battle," and then attack a Haunt, which makes it as if one hero (which must be the Elf Archmage) isn't even in my hand. Legal?


I assume when you write, LEGAL? with a question mark you are asking the question of whether or not this is legal. Since you've stated a true statement. I will just address that. Yes. If the Elf Archmage is the only Hero in your hand, correct. You cannot attack the Haunt.

Antistone wrote:

- I have no weapons, but I have a Regian Bishop, and I invoke it's "DUNGEON" ability to draw two cards, and happen to draw a Dagger. I then attack a Darkness ("Battle: Unequipped Heroes cannot attack."), which would have prevent me from using my Regian Bishop at all, but I now have a Dagger to equip on him so that I can use him. Legal?


The Regian Bishop uses his Dungeon ability before you select who you are attacking. Hopefully the new rules clarifications (due out at the end of the week), will address this.

Antistone wrote:

- If your answer to the above questions is that "DUNGEON" abilities should still work even if the hero can't attack (possibly because they take place before the actual battle), then I draw a Chalice Defender, with the ability "DUNGEON: Attack +1 for each Item that produces Light." Can I use that ability if the Chalice Defender can't attack?


Yes. But the Chalice Defender gains the Attack bonus. So, if he can't attack, the point is moot.

Antistone wrote:

- If I attack a Haunt in rank 1 with a Feayn Archer and another hero, can I choose the Feayn Archer as the hero that cannot attack due to the Haunt's effect, even though he is already prevented from attacking by his own card text?


No. The Feayn archer cannot attack the Haunt. It can't not attack twice.

Antistone wrote:

- If I attack a Revenant in rank 1 with a Feayn Archer, does he get destroyed (after having his strength reduced to zero) even though he isn't "involved" in the fight? Can I target him with an Iron Ration to keep his strength up and avoid having him destroyed?


Yes. He is destroyed. Yes. He can eat some rations before hand and get his strength up. Really, if these Thunderstone Heroes just ate more often, I think they'd fair better.
 
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Looks like Ryan already addressed this. Should have read all the way down.
 
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jimpinto wrote:
I assume when you write, LEGAL? with a question mark you are asking the question of whether or not this is legal. Since you've stated a true statement. I will just address that. Yes. If the Elf Archmage is the only Hero in your hand, correct. You cannot attack the Haunt.

Your interpretation of the question "Legal?" is as I intended.

When you say that "I" cannot attack the Haunt, do you actually mean that I can attack (definition #3) the Haunt after using the Elf Archmage's ability, but that the Elf cannot attack (definition #2) the Haunt?

If you really mean that I cannot choose to do battle with the Haunt at all, then why is that? Perhaps I've misunderstood the Haunt card and it actually means that it cannot be attacked if the party contains exactly one hero, as opposed to meaning that one hero from the party will be forced to sit on the sidelines if I choose to do battle with it?

jimpinto wrote:
Incorrect. The Regian Bishop uses his Dungeon ability before you select who you are attacking.

What part was incorrect? Perhaps I was unclear, but I was attempting to describe a situation in which the Regian Bishop uses his Dungeon ability, draws a Dagger, equips it, and then attacks the Darkness (which would have been impossible if the Dagger were not drawn).

jimpinto wrote:
Yes. But the Chalice Defender gains the Attack bonus. So, if he can't attack, the point is moot.

OK, so the key is that a Dungeon ability that just says "Attack +1" means that the card with the ability gains attack value, but that attack vaue isn't transferred from the card to my attack value total until the battle actually takes place?

Thanks; that seems managable enough. I assume this will be reflected in the turn sequence in the updated rulebook...

jimpinto wrote:
No. The Feayn archer cannot attack the Haunt. It can't not attack twice.

I'm sorry, but I'm still really confused about the exact nature of the rule you are creating to prevent this.


- Any decision that would cause a hero to be unable to attack due to two independent reasons is illegal?

Meaning that I can't even choose to engage a Darkness on rank 1 if I have a Feayn Archer and no weapons in my hand (no matter what other cards I have), since he'd be stopped from attacking both by being at rank 1 and by the Darkness' Battle effect?


- I cannot choose to target an ability such that a hero would be prevented from attacking due to two independent reasons?

Meaning if you ever published a card with the ability "DUNGEON: Destroy one hero; that hero cannot attack," then it would be illegal to use that ability on an unarmed hero before fighting a Darkness?


- I cannot deliberately target any ability in a way that causes that ability's effect to be entirely negated?

Meaning that when I fight a Gray Ooze (destroys one hero unless a weapon is attached), if I have one armed hero and one unarmed hero, I must target the unarmed hero, since the armed hero would be unaffected?

Well, maybe the Gray Ooze actually means "destroy one hero, unless at least one attached weapon exists in your hand," which would invalidate that example. How about: If you ever published a monster with the ability "Battle: Reduce one hero's strength by half," it would be illegal to select a hero that currently has zero strength, since halving zero has no effect?


- I cannot deliberately target an ability in a way that causes any part of that ability's effect to be negated?

Meaning that I cannot feed Goodberries to a hero whose attack is already entirely magical, even if I just want the strength bonus?


- Some other option that I've overlooked?


I guess it's not important to get an answer right now if this will all be explained in the new rulebook...
 
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