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Subject: Tested Japanese Strategy - 6 Victory cities in 4 turns rss

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Nate Bangerter
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So, just to preface this, I just barely tested this strategy in full only once and don't consider it an absolute win scenario across the board. I do however consider it a pretty viable strategy.

I tried this strategy against a seasoned Axis and Allies player and to really put it to the test, I told him exactly what I was going to do with Japan from the start. I would hope this would provide the best thought of countering it.

The basis of the strategy is winning the game quickly by taking and holding 6 victory cities. They would be the following in order of acquisition: Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Honolulu, Manila, Sydney.

J1, build 3 Transports and an Arty. Make some attacks into China and take Burma Road. Move sufficient troop strength on Mainland China to be within attack range of both the Burma road and Hong Kong. Move ships off the coast of China to Japan and then move carrier fleets and all other ships to Midway and Wake, boarding Hawaii. Pick up one troop from Palau and bring back to Caroline Is. Land all bombers and plans from Japan on Marshall Is.

The Allies reacted accordingly. U.S. acutally decided to vacate Hawaii completely, keeping the fleet at West Coast. They also flew some planes and bombers to Midway which would allow Bombers to bomb Hawaii if needed for retaking. They were also based with a mix of fighters. I did not expect vacating Hawaii and considered it a good strategy since the full might of Japan's Navy could decimate any opposition really. (Which would be preferable though also costly) China did their thing on their turn. U.K. took one of the DEI and sent the other transport to fulfill the ANZAC NO to bolster their future defense. End of turn 1

J2, Build 3 more transports and enough ground to land again in Hawaii including an Anti Air in a Non-Combat move. Take Hong Kong and Burma road if possible. Pound elsewhere in China but start thinking of going defensive at this point. By the way, all planes that started in China Stay in China. Bring Formosa and Okinawa fighters in also. Took Hawaii without a shot. Landed troops from Caroline at Solomon Is. to take NO from ANZAC. U.S. did not set any screening vessels to prevent going down to Queensland or New Zeland on J3.

U.S. Built what they could and had 3 loaded transports I believe at this time with another carrier. U.K. grabbed some more Islands and moved to secure Burma Road. They also took Indochina since I left it open at this point. ANZAC built some more defense and kept bulk of forces in Queensland. End of Turn 2.

From here, it gets a little tricky. I believe I built a minor factory in Hong Kong and an Air Base on Solomon Is. That left me with enough for another Transport and tank I believe. By this time I believe that ANZAC had about 5 fighters and plenty of troops. I decided to take New Zeland instead of going for Queensland since the majority of my fighters would be unable to participate anyways. I flew planes originally from Japan to land on Hawaii which now included about 4 infantry and an Arty along with AA protection. I did leave my two BB's there along with my subs and Destroyers at Hawaii. Think it would have been better to take a BB or two down to New Zeland as well. Landed three bombers in Solomon Is. On this turn, Japan started to fall back to the cost in China to defend victory cities and prevent any blitzkrieg from U.K.

U.S. moved majority of fleet to Midway on this turn with enough force to land in Japan if not fortified. I did need to remind him to leave enough strength in West Coast because I did have 3 loaded transports and 2 BB bombardments that could pose a problem. China was getting bulky by this time and built some Arty. U,K, fulfilled DEI NO at this time and positioned fleet to strike Hong Kong. ANZAC pulled everything to Sydney on this turn. End of Turn 3.

J4, I worried for defending Japan so I bolstered some defense on that. I was mistaken by this since a simple screening vessel would have prevented this for another turn in sea zone 16. Japan took Sydney with only one Tank left to land but very few air losses as well. No amazing rolling in the battle and I thought it was pretty reasonable actually. No other units were left in Australia at this time. I did not acutally invade Manila on this turn with my one Transport with an Inf/tank combo but all that was on Manila was 2 inf. I destroyed the U.K. fleet with 6 planes and reinforced VC's on the mainland. I also tried my hand at taking out the Main U.S. fleet and rolled well and in turn annihilated them with minimal losses and damage to BB's. At this point, it was impossible for a retake of Hawaii and Sydney in the immediate future.

So, if effect, this was the lay out of our run through. China was definitely becoming a sleeping giant and U.K. was in effect untouched by this point except for Hong Kong. Now it was just trying to get the Japanese Fleet back into the war. I would have changed things around a bit and been more ready for and invasion of Manila to effectively end the game.

So, this really is an objective based strategy but I thought for the most part the Allied response was better then it would have been without a complete understanding of my attack plan.

Let me know what you think and maybe we can fill in some of the the holes as well as better counters for this. I hope to try it out a bit more myself.
 
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Greg Low
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Don't take it the wrong way because I mean it. You can count. Many people can't. The game is to 6 victory cities, and picking the right ones is key. I respect that.

It brings up a good point. The big money is in the East Indes, but dying rich helps noone. There's isn't a Victory city to the Southwest of Manila. It takes some time for troops in India to get into the fight and recover Hong Kong.

Still, I think abandoning Hawaii was a poor idea. Why no screen at Midway to block the attack? It seems more delaying tactics would be advised. As mentioned elsewhere, moves that are bad for each individual ally aren't necessarily bad for the whole alliance. You can't dodge the Japanese for long and think they won't get to 6 cities.

Best,
-Greg
 
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Nate Bangerter
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talrich wrote:
Don't take it the wrong way because I mean it. You can count. Many people can't. The game is to 6 victory cities, and picking the right ones is key. I respect that.

It brings up a good point. The big money is in the East Indes, but dying rich helps noone. There's isn't a Victory city to the Southwest of Manila. It takes some time for troops in India to get into the fight and recover Hong Kong.

Still, I think abandoning Hawaii was a poor idea. Why no screen at Midway to block the attack? It seems more delaying tactics would be advised. As mentioned elsewhere, moves that are bad for each individual ally aren't necessarily bad for the whole alliance. You can't dodge the Japanese for long and think they won't get to 6 cities.

Best,
-Greg


I agree. I think the key really is to the U.S. pulling all the stops. The only thing I still find a bit vague is in regards to ships occupying the same sea zone when not at war yet. Reading the Errata, war is declared before the start of the combat phase. The question about screening vessels also does stop transports from blitzing through as per the rules. I think that either the attack would need to wait till turn 3 or attack with the 3 transports on turn 2. So in essence, 4 turns may be quite the stretch. Gonna try out some of these suggestions. Keep em coming!
 
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Eric V
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Ummm...you put in the title "Tested" then you preface your post by saying it's not really tested?

The US just gave you Hawaii? This alone really invalidates your strat. I can't see this as a viable move in any game, I mean the fact that you had to remind the US player that you were in range to invade the Western US shows that they are not very seasoned players, or at least not seasoned in this version of the game. Your opening move for the US should be to transport in an infantry and a tank and move the Hawaiian transport back to the west coast. In addition you can move all your air units there, so on US1 if Hawaii is threatened you should have a defense of 3 Infantry, a Tank, 3 Bombers, 3 Fighters and 3 Tac Bombers. A US destroyer in Midway will block any invasion from Japan and the fleet that starts in Midway will be forced to chose to move out of the territory or stay and fight, thus tying up that entire fleet. A sacraficial Cruiser in Hawaii blocks all shore bombardment and if you try and send in a token fleet the US can sorty all their air units.

There really isn't enough detail to try and recreate your strat, but, it seems pretty shakey. I think you got lucky against people who haven't played Pac 40 very much. I'd love to hear more details so I can test this strat with my group, we have some pretty cut throat players, and quite frankly I'm starting to suspect the allies of being the stronger side.
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Nate Bangerter
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gwlachmai wrote:
Ummm...you put in the title "Tested" then you preface your post by saying it's not really tested?

The US just gave you Hawaii? This alone really invalidates your strat. I can't see this as a viable move in any game, I mean the fact that you had to remind the US player that you were in range to invade the Western US shows that they are not very seasoned players, or at least not seasoned in this version of the game. Your opening move for the US should be to transport in an infantry and a tank and move the Hawaiian transport back to the west coast. In addition you can move all your air units there, so on US1 if Hawaii is threatened you should have a defense of 3 Infantry, a Tank, 3 Bombers, 3 Fighters and 3 Tac Bombers. A US destroyer in Midway will block any invasion from Japan and the fleet that starts in Midway will be forced to chose to move out of the territory or stay and fight, thus tying up that entire fleet. A sacraficial Cruiser in Hawaii blocks all shore bombardment and if you try and send in a token fleet the US can sorty all their air units.

There really isn't enough detail to try and recreate your strat, but, it seems pretty shakey. I think you got lucky against people who haven't played Pac 40 very much. I'd love to hear more details so I can test this strat with my group, we have some pretty cut throat players, and quite frankly I'm starting to suspect the allies of being the stronger side.


Maybe a better title would have been "Testing"!

I like a lot of the points that you did bring up and with the whole picket ship in Midway, that would change the amount of infantry available. I am interested in the interpretation of the scramble rule because I would consider it an unfair advantage if the attacker is required to commit its forces before knowing which fighters would scramble on the defending side. Interested to know what people think of that.

The other rules question is how ship combat would block any attempts to do bombardment. I thought that you can pick and choose what ships are engaged in the See battle and which ones would hold back to perform shore bombardment?

I did test with some of the above situations and came to the conclusion that this approach needs to be adjusted to the possibility of going for Australia first. If the Aussies build defensively for long enough, they would be just as hard to take as the U.S. in some regards. Once Australia is out of the picture as well as Philippines (Maybe around turn 3 at the earliest) all Japan has to focus on is two things; keeping their current Victory cities and sending everything else at taking Hawaii when at a full war economy.

Think I will give this a try against myself and see what comes of it
 
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Greg Low
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natebigdawg wrote:
I thought that you can pick and choose what ships are engaged in the See battle and which ones would hold back to perform shore bombardment?
That was an option in prior A&A versions, but I don't see any rule that permits it in A&A40. I think it's all or nothing in this version.

-Greg
 
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Greg Low
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natebigdawg wrote:
I am interested in the interpretation of the scramble rule because I would consider it an unfair advantage if the attacker is required to commit its forces before knowing which fighters would scramble on the defending side.
On second thought I'll comment on that too.

I am interpreting this as requiring the attacker to declare all moves first, but it would be nice if the sequence made the FAQ.

I don't think it's "unfair" because all sides benefit from the same effect at different times during the game, but I'll completely agree that it's powerful. I think it's safe to assume that a single fighter at Midway will scramble, so it's not entirely unpredictable.

Best,
-Greg
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Kevin Chapman
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talrich wrote:
natebigdawg wrote:
I thought that you can pick and choose what ships are engaged in the See battle and which ones would hold back to perform shore bombardment?
That was an option in prior A&A versions, but I don't see any rule that permits it in A&A40. I think it's all or nothing in this version.

-Greg

It's always been all or nothing in every version.

talrich wrote:
natebigdawg wrote:
I am interested in the interpretation of the scramble rule because I would consider it an unfair advantage if the attacker is required to commit its forces before knowing which fighters would scramble on the defending side.
On second thought I'll comment on that too.

I am interpreting this as requiring the attacker to declare all moves first, but it would be nice if the sequence made the FAQ.

Correct. Since scrambling occurs at the beginning of the Conduct Combat phase, all combat moves must be completed before scrambling occurs.
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Greg Low
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Krieghund wrote:
Correct. Since scrambling occurs at the beginning of the Conduct Combat phase, all combat moves must be completed before scrambling occurs.
Wait a second. Does that mean that scambling fighters can't block a seazone unless there's also a ship present?

-Greg
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Yes, it does. The only time air units can scramble when there are no friendly ships in the sea zone is if an amphibious assault is being conducted.
 
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Eric V
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Can Japanese fighters scramble to prevent an amphibious assault on Korea? This has popped up before and we came to the conclusion that they can, but, it would be nice to hear the official word.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Yes, they can.
 
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Greg Low
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Krieghund wrote:
It's always been all or nothing in every version.
Thanks for the correction Krieghund!

I think I misread revised, where the rules read, "A battleship that is involved in the sea combat portion of an amphibious assault cannot fire in this step." I overlooked the later rule that stated that all ships attack when there's a combat.

The current wording from A&A40 - "If there was NOT a combat in the sea zone..." is an improvement.

Best,
-Greg
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Thanks. We try to improve the rules in every new game. Sometimes we succeed, and sometimes we don't.
 
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James Smith
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i'm a bit new but i don't have a clue how japan wins usa has too much ipc when it joins the war
 
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rus kosits
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Japan can lose just as easily by keeping the US econ. low, and the USA out of the war until it locks down china. While this may seem like one potential technique to deny the US economy, the downside becomes the UK economy - uncontested occupation of the DEI by UK/allies makes UK's income high 20's on turn 1 and almost 40 on turn 2.

I favor a J1 attack that sinks UK transports and drives for calcutta, but i am still waiting to see a Japan victory in this game.
 
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James Aleman
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I am still waiting to see a Japanese loss.

J1: Build: 3 transports

Take Philippines and Kwangtung turn 1. Destroy UK fleet with 3 bombers and 1 fighter. Hawaii transport with Jap Sub, to prevent scramble.

J2: Build: Minor Factory Manchuria to make land units for Korean landing counter-attack in later turns; AC, DD, 2 Inf in SZ6

Take Borneo turn 2. Take Malaya turn 2 for Major Factory turn 3. Move J1 Transports to Philippines with bulk of non carrier fleet. From here they take rest of NO islands turn 3. With 6 transports 4 should live to take other island chain turn 5.

Turn 3 park 1 sub off of India [sub goes to Philippines turn 1, Malaya turn 2], to keep them at 3 IPCs.

Goals: Finish China first, then take Hawaii or New south wales, and grab India last for the win. New south wales might require a naval base on West Australia, to enable transports to go back and forth to Malaya for 10 Land units a turn in Australia.

With these factories, and proper maneuvering the game is yours. Remember after Malayan factory, just keep bombers in Asia, the rest of air force can be used to hold key islands.
 
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Heavy Yeti of the Hill People
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I've played about three games so far and I don't see any way japan is going to grab 6 capitol cities unless the allied player fell asleep for a round.

The game I just played Japan (my opponent) had captured India and Queensland. He had largely ignored the mainland and China had control of Shanghai with large stacks of infantry/artillery. Even with the UK and ANZAC out of the game I could easily hold Shanghai, Hong Kong, Honolulu, and occasionally liberate Manila. The U.S. seems a bit overpowered. Once they're on a wartime economy Japan really has no chance of ever winning decisively. No doubt this is historically correct but it makes the game a little pointless. We eventually just called it because it was clear we could go back and forth like this for hours more and still have no winner.

With regard to your grab 6 capitols strategy outlined above, you do realize JAPAN has to hold all 6 at the end of ANZACS turn right? Meaning the allies get to continue playing through even if Japan is occupying 6 capitol cities at the end of their turn.




 
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david drayer
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My strategy as Japan was to cut the Burma road turn one and hold up to it while taking out China. Then Going for the Money I took all of the Dutch East Indies and Hong Kong bring America into the War. India fell from lack of Income, Manilla was easy and then a race to take Australia before The US could reinforce it. As you say it was a see saw battle with close to even income between the US and Japan. The US surrendered to my relief.
I need people to play against in southern orange county CA. (I have all versions of Axis and Allies including the anniversary issue to play)
David Drayer
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Alex Hammer
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I think that ANZAC and the French territories are greatly overlooked in the game. If you use them to your advantage then it could be very benefitial to you.

An idea I reacently came up with (but haven't tried) is that you use conbine some common strategies.

Firstly, you always hit China hard because if you let them get stronge then they can be a problem. Secondly, you should take the two or at least one of the undefented french territories (French Indo China and New Hebrides). You can do this without opostion. Them you can build a minor industrial complex and maybe a naval base on French Indo China. Thridly, you should build up an invasion force in japan and french indo china but leave the one in Japan there.

Once you've done this you Should split the invasion force from Japan and useing the increased range of the ships attack both Hawaii and the Phillipines. At the same time you should capture Hong Kong with units left over in eastern China, and finally you can invade Northern Territoey (ANZAC) and if lightly defended the Dutch east indies from French indo china. You can use the inital navy in Japan to hit the US fleet and the one off the corroline islands to hit the british. From this point you should be able to capture New South Wales the next turn and with your ne IPC income then hold off enemy counter attacks the next 2 turns

p.s If you manage to gain New Hebrides early on then you can use it to bomb eastern ANZAC durng the invasion
 
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Michael Love
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There are two of us in Temecula that will play.
Let us know.
Mike L.
 
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