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1830: Railways & Robber Barons» Forums » Rules

Subject: 2 quick questions - rail heads and money rss

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Chris
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Let me ask the easy question first -- I'm assuming money is open and not hidden...that's the way I've played before, is that correct?

Second question -- when it comes to placing rail heads, does the company need to be able to reach the space where the rail head is being placed?

Example - Company A has a 2 train, only. They wish to place a rail head 4 spaces (circles and pips) from the home hex. They have access (through its rail line) to that space, and no other rail head blocks their access, but - obviously - with a 2 train, they would be unable to ever reach that circle. Is this still a legal play?

If it is (and, I don't have an opinion as to whether it is or isn't) - this could be devastating for companies yet-to-be-launched (and, I kinda like that).

Thanks!
 
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Chakroun Karim
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from the rules .rtf in the files section :

Quote:
A permitted location is any large city which is connected by a legal route (however long) to a Railhead. Note there must be a vacant space to receive the token on the city concerned.
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Mark Gray
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We always played Company money public, personal funds private.
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Robert Taylor-Smith
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Personal money is public, company money is private (known to only the president) according to the rules. You want to know how much cash is in a company then it's going to cost ya (ie. take over as president). The same rule applies to 1856 and 1870. All transactions are public knowledge so a player can ask for how much train(s) are being bought for between companies.

1830 rulebook page 7 second paragraph section 11.0 Railroad Stock - Formation of Corporation: 'The money may be kept in a stack and the amount held need not be divulged!' The '!' is actually in the rulebook!

Certain BBG fans of 18xx games are also fans of using computers to keep track of all money and have houseruled that all money is public knowledge (since they track EVERY transaction). But that is a HOUSERULE and brings up a whole can of worms regarding computer use during boardgames, esp. 18xx. My normal playgroup allows calculators but that's the limit. I can see it now, Agricola or Powergrid played with a laptop beside each player complete with spreadsheet analysis of every move.

Another reason why poker chips aren't a good fit for 1830. Unless a shield, borrowed say from Knizia's Tigris and Euphrates, is used.



Route length isn't limited to what train(s) value the laying company current has, you can even lay track and tokens without a train. You can't lay station tokens on circles that have a preset company logo printed on the map, they are reserved. The Erie's starting hexagon OO tile can be laid by another company (and screwed around it's position) but no station token can be laid on it before the Erie lays it's starting token.
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Breno K.
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I think 18xx should always be played with open money, private or company, regardless of what the manual says. There's already enough to think about without having to memorize numbers that keep changing.
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Chris
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Thanks for the replies - I've always played that way (railheads anywhere and money open) - so, I'm relieved
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Robert Taylor-Smith
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Lemur wrote:
Thanks for the replies - I've always played that way (railheads anywhere and money open) - so, I'm relieved


Just as long as you know you're houseruling.
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Breno K.
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With poker chips being the norm and impossible to hide, my guess is that the open-money house-rule is more common than actually following the original rule.
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Chris
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BrenoK wrote:
With poker chips being the norm and impossible to hide, my guess is that the open-money house-rule is more common than actually following the original rule.



Exactly - we use poker chips. No real way to hide the money., but - I don't know that anyone has ever explicitly asked, "how much money do you have?"

Anyway - I was more concerned with the railhead rule....
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David Aber
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We always play xx with open money. Not that we worry about the company money that much.
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Paul Amala
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BrenoK wrote:
I think 18xx should always be played with open money, private or company, regardless of what the manual says. There's already enough to think about without having to memorize numbers that keep changing.


I have to disagree. Hidden corporate funds allow all kinds of nasty swindles. You just need to keep track of what others are doing - in your head - no note taking!

You only have to keep a rough track of the funds - things like "will they be forced to buy a train they can't afford?" If so then you check to see if by selling stock he can dump it on someone else or not.
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Ron K
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BrenoK wrote:
With poker chips being the norm and impossible to hide, my guess is that the open-money house-rule is more common than actually following the original rule.


Not impossible to hide (put them in a container). But, given that all the transactions are open, everything is trackable. Since everyone keeping their own log of which players and companies have what assets just makes for a much longer game, it is reasonable to raise a house rule that all cash is public.

-Ron
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Ron K
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paulamala wrote:
BrenoK wrote:
I think 18xx should always be played with open money, private or company, regardless of what the manual says. There's already enough to think about without having to memorize numbers that keep changing.


I have to disagree. Hidden corporate funds allow all kinds of nasty swindles. You just need to keep track of what others are doing - in your head - no note taking!

You only have to keep a rough track of the funds - things like "will they be forced to buy a train they can't afford?" If so then you check to see if by selling stock he can dump it on someone else or not.


If you're going by the letter of the rules, then writing down the transaction amounts is not breaking the rules unless you introduce an additional house rule to that effect.

-Ron
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J C Lawrence
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The house-rule argument is hogwash. All the information is open, it merely needs tracking. All hiding money does is reward those who track for performing uninteresting drudgery. It adds no qualities to the game, merely an extra chore.

At the start of every game I hand out calculators, pens and pads of papers to the players. They are heavily used and you can see them in many of my 18xx pictures. Several players keep complete running logs of their positions and various company positions on paper. Occasionally someone will ask how much money is in another player's company and a third person will simply riff the number off their paper pad...and be right (or discover a discrepancy, which usually reveals that their paper is right as versus reality).

Despite and because of this and personal preference, we only play with open money. Open money produces simpler, more interesting and faster games. I can find no downsides.
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Paul Amala
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Well this thread does point out one thing: if you are playing with people you don't know, it's a good idea to discuss 'house rules' up front. Hopefully that could prevent arguments.angry
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Chris Shaffer
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I'm with Clearclaw. If someone insists on closed money, I either say "ok, see ya later" and play a different game or I haul out the paper and pencil and start tracking everything.
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Paul Amala
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Marcus de Bassus wrote:
We always played Company money public, personal funds private.


This was in the tournament rules for 1830 at the 1993 Avalacon.
 
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Chris
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It's interesting - we played yesterday and decided all money was open (based on a lot of conversation here, and the fact we were playing with poker chips).

I had a setup here I could dump the CanPac on someone who - in the same turn, needed to buy a diesel for his other line (he would have had two railroads after the dump, neither with a train, and only diesels avaialable -- there was no way he could come up with 2200). Unfortunately, this setup required another railroad to buy the last 6 in the second OR (allowing me to do what I needed in the 3rd OR. Instead, he didn't buy the train until the 3rd OR, leaving me having to wait until the next series of ORs to do it.

Over that next series of ORs, I paid out dividends, which meant this other player got $300+ from the three runs.

Now, that others saw what I *may* be doing, they started encouraging me to do it (our game lasted a VERY long time - 7.5 hours, with two brand newbies, one who'd played once before and one who'd played twice before (this was my 8th time playing).

I was set to do it, and, I asked him, "how much money you got?" - with the cash on hand, and the stocks he COULD sell, he could come very close to getting the 1100 required. I elected not to dump the stock and, instead, to push it forward. In retrospect, I probably should have dumped it anyways - he ended up winning the game (since I had 6 shares and he had 4, he was getting a good chunk of dividend every time) -- but, because I *knew* he could afford the train, I decided not to do it.

I don't know if I would have won - but that's not the point. The point is, I would have definitely dumped it, if I didn't know - for certain - that he could afford the diesel. I don't know how I feel about that (the ability to *know*).
 
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Ron K
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Lemur wrote:
The point is, I would have definitely dumped it, if I didn't know - for certain - that he could afford the diesel. I don't know how I feel about that (the ability to *know*).


But even with closed money, you could have tracked on paper exactly how much he had yielding the same result. Of course, you could opt to rely on memory and then guessed but the two key points here are that 1) other than the initial seating, there is no luck and 2) the vast majority of the 18xx crowd find the game is diminished by introducing luck. YMMV

-Ron
 
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J C Lawrence
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Wrong question. You could have dumped it on him. He would then have to spend the $1,100 for the train, and then in the next SR you could have bought back most of the shares you dumped for very little more than you sold them for, but now with a nice train behind them. He loses $1,100 and gains a little density via a presidential share. You lose a little density, but don't have to pay $1,100. One of you comes out ahead in that relationship -- and that answer depends on how long that diesel is going to run.
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Chris
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clearclaw wrote:
Wrong question. You could have dumped it on him. He would then have to spend the $1,100 for the train, and then in the next SR you could have bought back most of the shares you dumped for very little more than you sold them for, but now with a nice train behind them. He loses $1,100 and gains a little density via a presidential share. You lose a little density, but don't have to pay $1,100. One of you comes out ahead in that relationship -- and that answer depends on how long that diesel is going to run.



Not "wrong question"...wrong answer - I realized afterwards (i.e., this morning), I should've dumped it.

Still kicking myself over it.
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Bill Herbst
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As it turns out, you should definitely have dumped it on him but at the time you (we all actually) saw David rather than Brian as your main competition. I'm still not sure how Brian managed to do as well as he did.
 
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J C Lawrence
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One of the things I've long wanted to do was to build a dynamic real-time graph for 18xx which showed each players cash + revenues + stock appreciation as a based vector against time. That would make a lot of these decisions (and the same ones in Chicago Express) much simpler.
 
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