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Subject: A Censor with No Prior Consular Experience? rss

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Jeremiah Peterson
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Hi all,

We had an untimely death (via mortality chit draw) of our Temporary Rome Consul at the start of a recent game I'm playing -- whoops! Subsequently, when it comes time to elect a Censor this first turn, we will throw open the nomination to all aligned Senators in Rome, since no one has any prior consular experience.

Our question becomes -- what happens on the next turn? Barring any more untimely deaths, on Turn 2 we will have 2 Senators with prior consular experience, and a current Censor that does not. The rules state that Censors may succeed themselves, but also that Censors require prior consular experience.

So, will our Censor without consular experience be forced to yield right of nomination to the 2 prior Consuls, or is he also eligible for re-nomination?

How would you play it? Is this one of those situations where we just toss a coin to see whether he's eligible?

Thanks for your help/opinions!
 
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Ricky Gray
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Hi.

Censors require prior consular experience, as you correctly cite. Per your situation, barring any more untimely deaths, you will have 2 eligible candidates for Censor next time around: the 2 prior consuls. He was only made eligible earlier because of the lack in Rome of anyone with consular experience. Now that that has been rectified ...

That's how I would play it.

Ricky
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brian
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I would say he can succeed himself - so there are 3 viable candidates.
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Ricky Gray
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I'm stricter than Brian. Obviously, Brian is not good Censor material .

Ricky
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Darrell Pavitt
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I would say that the replacement should be considered the "Field consul" at the start of the game, and gets the prior consul just like the now-dead "Rome consul" did.
So, all 3 would be eligible.
It keeps things simple.
 
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Frank McNally
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Just following the rules one reaches the conclusion Ricky reaches. No reason to do otherwise. Only those with the PC marker are eligible.

Also note a current consul can lack a PC marker if he were prosecuted while in office.
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brian
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FrankM wrote:
Just following the rules one reaches the conclusion Ricky reaches. No reason to do otherwise. Only those with the PC marker are eligible.

Also note a current consul can lack a PC marker if he were prosecuted while in office.

Strict reading of the rules, I would agree. But it is very possible that it was overlooked as well.

It seems a strange restriction to a rare occurrence (that the Temp Rome Counsel is the one to die in round one). So I don't think the intent is to prevent this "unexperienced" Censor to never be Censor again until he first becomes Consul or Dictator. If perhaps the Temp Rome Consul never got the Prior Consul marker, I would say it would have made sense for this situation to get blocked as well.

Regardless, I have added a note to my working copy of the Living rules to have VG clarify. But I think it very possible that this Censor get a Prior Consul marker as well.
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Dick Leban
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3.01.6 (VG) and 4.6 (AH) specifically state that the Temporary Rome Consul gets both a Rome Consul and Prior Consul marker. In the case where a Censor is elected where he does not already have a Prior Consul marker, I'd say that since the rules state that the current Censor is eligible, he doesn't need a Prior Consul marker.

--edit: I guess that since the rules state candidates for Censor "must" have a PC marker but allows an exception (no eligible candidate), this discussion resolves to the "may" in "the Censor may succeed himself." Does that mean that the current censor may succeed himself if qualified by having a PC marker, or that the current censor may succeed himself no matter what. Could go either way.

I think this might have come up in our last game.
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Ricky Gray
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But the question is about the eligibility of a Censor to be re-elected Censor who was previously elected Censor not based upon the standard eligibility requirement of having a Prior Consul marker, but rather in a situation where there were no Prior Consuls available, so he was elected in an "open" election.

Does that even make sense?!

Ricky
 
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Dick Leban
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Yeah, my last post was in mid-edit during your post so if you didn't reread it....
 
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Ricky Gray
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Quote:
Yeah, my last post was in mid-edit during your post so if you didn't reread it....


Just went back and saw the edit - that is the rub here exactly, I believe.

Quote:
I think this might have come up in our last game.


We're dealing with it in our PBeM game right now (well, in the upcoming Senate phase). The very first Forum phase saw an Epidemic hit and kill the temporary RC, so we currently have a Censor with no PC marker.

It'll be interesting to see what the answer is here.

Ricky
 
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brian
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TVDinner wrote:
--edit: I guess that since the rules state candidates for Censor "must" have a PC marker but allows an exception (no eligible candidate), this discussion resolves to the "may" in "the Censor may succeed himself." Does that mean that the current censor may succeed himself if qualified by having a PC marker, or that the current censor may succeed himself no matter what. Could go either way.

I think this might have come up in our last game.

The point in the rules seems more to limit who can run for Censor for the first time. The marker is just a way to remember who had an office so you don't have to write it down. And having been prosecuted and losing the marker, then you are prevented form being Censor until you can reestablish yourself once again as a Consul.

But I think the sentence that "A Censor can succeed himself" overrides the "must have a Prior Consul marker." (or whatever the exact wording is.)
 
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Ricky Gray
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Quote:
But I think the sentence that "A Censor can succeed himself" overrides the "must have a Prior Consul marker." (or whatever the exact wording is.)


I definitely can see that interpretation, and am more than willing to go with it.

Sometime, however, I would like to have an official clarification one way or another.

Ricky
 
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brian
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Preacher wrote:
Quote:
But I think the sentence that "A Censor can succeed himself" overrides the "must have a Prior Consul marker." (or whatever the exact wording is.)


I definitely can see that interpretation, and am more than willing to go with it.

Sometime, however, I would like to have an official clarification one way or another.

Ricky

Seeing as it will be another day or two before I finish up my mark up of the living rules with all my questions, I decided to just send in the question directly to John Rodriguez and see what he says.
 
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brian
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So says John!

Quote:
Only two. The Censor can succeed himself only if he is eligable.


"Only two" represents the two Consuls. I gave him the exact scenario and asked if there were 2 or 3 candidates.

So seeing as how we only have 2 Consuls in our PBEM and one is still at War, only our FC will be eligible to be Censor.
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Steve Bachman
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
FrankM wrote:
Just following the rules one reaches the conclusion Ricky reaches. No reason to do otherwise. Only those with the PC marker are eligible.

Also note a current consul can lack a PC marker if he were prosecuted while in office.

Strict reading of the rules, I would agree. But it is very possible that it was overlooked as well.

It seems a strange restriction to a rare occurrence (that the Temp Rome Counsel is the one to die in round one). So I don't think the intent is to prevent this "unexperienced" Censor to never be Censor again until he first becomes Consul or Dictator. If perhaps the Temp Rome Consul never got the Prior Consul marker, I would say it would have made sense for this situation to get blocked as well.

It's not a rare situation at all, and I've seen it happen in several times already. There are other situations (besides the one you've mentioned) that may cause the Censor election to be "open" one turn due to lack of eligible candidates yet have several candidates with PC markers the following turn. The first requirement is a PC marker; the re-election is merely pointing out the difference between Censor and Consuls, who may not be re-elected consecutively.
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