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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis_%28docum...
will tell you the theory.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5402928.stm
will tell you its practical application to keep the child victims of paedophile priests silent, on threat of excommunication - being thrown out of their God's Church, being forced to be a non-Catholic with perhaps no chance for salvation.

So you get arse ripped by your priest and, after reporting it, if you say a word out of place you get damned to hell as well.

Any Catholics here want to defend this soul destroying bastardry? Any other believers in the necessity of preservation of social heirarchy and structure at any cost?

Its one thing to sacrifice people who are "other" - sacrificing your own to keep your respectable image is something else.

How many members, as a percentage, of your group/club/profession/religion/political party/country would you be prepared to sacrifice to allow it to escape social disgrace?

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Re: 'crimen sollicitationis' (crime of solicitation) - perfect bastardy?
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Sam I am
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Re: 'crimen sollicitationis' (crime of solicitation) - perfect bastardy?
I'm sure that this has something to do with Obama.... Tripp?
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Joe Benavides
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Pinook wrote:
Its one thing to sacrifice people who are "other" - sacrificing your own to keep your respectable image is something else.


I don't think sacrificing anyone of any religion or creed can be justified by the simple wish to "save face."
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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This is my problem with the Church. Love the theology, dislike the hierarchy. From the big things (this) to the little things (the lie about "Latin Masses") it's just troublesome. On the other hand the Vatican has so little to do with the Church that I deal with (Jesuit schooling, local parish) that it hardly registers (as apart from being another abuse of a large group of wealthy people). As to your question:

Quote:
How many members, as a percentage, of your group/club/profession/religion/political party/country would you be prepared to sacrifice to allow it to escape social disgrace?


I would say most people tend to rank this very high, or at least their tolerance of it is very high since it happens a lot, in depressing numbers.
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So ... either religion is a joke, or God wants to protect pedos ...

Tough choice ...
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Hankroyd wrote:
So ... either religion is a joke, or God wants to protect pedos ...


The Vatican hardly represents all Catholics, much less all religion. It always shocks me, and yet fills me with this calming reassurance, how the only two groups that seem to think otherwise are authoritarian apologists (and I guess the authoritarians) and people who don't like the Catholic church.
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DCAnderson wrote:
Vatican filled with insular, self-righteous philosophical dinosaurs. News at 11.

It appears to me that it wasný the Vatican who were the problem here.Opps. The letter sent out by the Vatican is amazing.
Also amazing is that the regional church hierarchies in, at least, Ireland, USA, and Australia, all went along with it for the next 40 years. So in term of analysing "power relationships" nothing significant to this happened inside RCC for some 40 years?

There is an old story about male members of a Catholic order being met at the Adelaide docks on arrival and being asked "So was it the boys or the bottle?". (The assumption was that only "defective goods" would be assigned to Adelaide.) This question is kinda funny and kinda "normalising child abuse".

Ratzinger - as explained in one of the cites - has now made it compulsory that the Vatican become involved in abuse cases. Some see this as him thinking that a better job of keeping things quiet could be done by the Vatican. I'm still hopeful that its more a case of "The buck stops here, and you guys have shown yourselves unable to do the right thing in this area."

What I'd like to know is how long has this abuse of children by paedophile priests been going on and being covered up. At least decades, but maybe generations, centuries or millenia? And how many children?

Even "just" decades demands that a social cost/benefit analysis be done of the products of the RCC. How many children abused?, how many of those went on to live damaging lives?, how many of those the original victims damaged went on to live damaging lives themselves? etc?, etc? ....
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Pinook wrote:
It appears to me that it wasný the Vatican who were the problem here.
It was the regional church hierarchies in, at least, Ireland, USA, and Australia.


I don't see this as being true. It's happening in these places, but this is not where the power to keep things covered up is coming from. Authoritative power with no checks and balances operating from a protected position with no regard for borders. When have these things ever added up to mean "a-ok"?

Quote:
What I'd like to know is how long has this abuse of children by paedophile priests been going on and being covered up. At least decades, but maybe generations, centuries or millenia? And how many children?


The thing you are doing, in this and in other places like your "is it right to sacrifice your own members to save face?" question, is taking problems of humanity and identifying them solely with the RCC (as in your nonsense cost/benefit analysis question). Your hyperbole is taking real problems and turning them into meaningless attacks, something that can only further justify in the minds of many Catholics the need to keep these things silent. I think, worse than sacrificing people to save face, is taking the bodies of victims and waving them as the flag for your own agenda. Your attitude is "We need to save people from the RCC" with little regard for the opinions of the people in there. The parallels to American Imperialism are are actually comical, but I won't press the analogy because I'm not entirely against "American Imperialism". In fact I'm not against people attacking the Catholic church (actually please do, it would only help). What bothers me is the way it's being done here and by many others who further justify the loonies. You're carpetbombing, when more than anything what the church needs know is a strong foundation built on people and less on tradition. We need these cancers removed, but we don't need the body dismantled (to mix metaphors). The church is the living bible, and right now we are still resting on the bones of our ancestors.

Okay I will also admit this is kind of cathartic for me because I've been again tackling a lot of the issues I have with Catholicism and this is a good way to "bounce off" a viewpoint I don't like but that isn't "wrong". And if you think I have misjudged your viewpoint, which I probably have, please know this was nothing personal against you, but rather your post has stood in as a manifestation of some issues I have been dealing with due to its similarities.
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lotus dweller
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BagpipeDan wrote:
Pinook wrote:
It appears to me that it wasný the Vatican who were the problem here.
It was the regional church hierarchies in, at least, Ireland, USA, and Australia.


I don't see this as being true. It's happening in these places, but this is not where the power to keep things covered up is coming from. Authoritative power with no checks and balances operating from a protected position with no regard for borders. When have these things ever added up to mean "a-ok"?

In general I agree - I've edited the above post. Posting the edit got delayed though.
I disagree that the power to keep things covered up is coming mainly from the Vatican. The regional hierarchies have shown themselves very prepared to re-interpret and ignore communications from the Vatican when it suited them.

Quote:
What I'd like to know is how long has this abuse of children by paedophile priests been going on and being covered up. At least decades, but maybe generations, centuries or millenia? And how many children?


The thing you are doing, in this and in other places like your "is it right to sacrifice your own members to save face?" question, is taking problems of humanity and identifying them solely with the RCC (as in your nonsense cost/benefit analysis question). Your hyperbole is taking real problems and turning them into meaningless attacks, something that can only further justify in the minds of many Catholics the need to keep these things silent. I think, worse than sacrificing people to save face, is taking the bodies of victims and waving them as the flag for your own agenda. Your attitude is "We need to save people from the RCC" with little regard for the opinions of the people in there. The parallels to American Imperialism are are actually comical, but I won't press the analogy because I'm not entirely against "American Imperialism". In fact I'm not against people attacking the Catholic church (actually please do, it would only help). What bothers me is the way it's being done here and by many others who further justify the loonies. You're carpetbombing, when more than anything what the church needs know is a strong foundation built on people and less on tradition. We need these cancers removed, but we don't need the body dismantled (to mix metaphors). The church is the living bible, and right now we are still resting on the bones of our ancestors.

Okay I will also admit this is kind of cathartic for me because I've been again tackling a lot of the issues I have with Catholicism and this is a good way to "bounce off" a viewpoint I don't like but that isn't "wrong". And if you think I have misjudged your viewpoint, which I probably have, please know this was nothing personal against you, but rather your post has stood in as a manifestation of some issues I have been dealing with due to its similarities.[/q]

In as much as my posts here gives people simplistic targets and solutions that involve "those other guys are bad" then yeah I agree that I'm continuing the kind of problems that are addressed here.

Thats the wonderful/destructive thing about acting from emotion - its powerful but usually ineffective in complex situations. While I think H Kissinger may well be a war criminal I do admire him.

If I assume that the people in the Vatican and the regional hierarchies are not bad but just have a different priority set to me then I can guess that their priorities are based on a very strong belief that the RCC is a force for good and that to continue its mission it is sometimes necessary to do terrible things. This position would fit in with just about everyone, except pacificts, in some areas of their world. eg Their country, Western Civilization, the human species.
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