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Subject: Point Token Question rss

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Gary Rabinovich
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We finaly had a chnace to sit down and play this game. At the end there were 2 different views as to how the tokens that you collect and the cities you cantrolled are scored.

The first was that the tokens that you collected are counted seperatley from the cities you controll. Thus giving you points for both.

The second, was the idea that the tokens are placed back on the controlled cities and are only markers and have no point value.

We read throught the rules several times and have not come up with a clear conlusion. So we scored both ways and there is a large differnce in the order from first to fourth.

Any help will be greatly appriciated.
 
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John Anderson
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capthowdy_00 wrote:
The first was that the tokens that you collected are counted seperatley from the cities you controll. Thus giving you points for both.
This is the correct way. How in the world would you remember which tokens came from which city? And what would happen if someone took over your city during the game?
 
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Josh Cappel
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The tokens you've collected don't score you points directly, although they indirectly translate to points by increasing your status tracks. The X symbol on the reverse is there because once the game is over, all tokens become single-point score chips to help players count their scores.

You score points for:

a) your status tracks
b) any X's on your cards, universities, or empty governor space
c) your occupied cities (mostly 1X each, two 2X on the board) and your controlled connections (1X each)
d) 1X point for every 3 leftover population in your harbor

e) minus 1X for each set-aside slavery card

...and thats it.

~Josh
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Gary Rabinovich
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The other party thought that you simply put the tokens back on the cities that you controled at the end of the game. ANd then count them as you remove them.

So then you only score the tokens that you have in addition to the cities that you are in at the end of the game? Correct?
 
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Josh Cappel
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capthowdy_00 wrote:
The other party thought that you simply put the tokens back on the cities that you controled at the end of the game. ANd then count them as you remove them.

So then you only score the tokens that you have in addition to the cities that you are in at the end of the game? Correct?


The tokens are worth nothing at the end of the game. Once you've verified that your status tracks are correct you could technically mix all players' tokens into a big pile and it wouldn't matter. They are just score chips at this point, to help count up your scores.

The "put-the-tokens-on-the-cities-and-connections" process is supposed to help people calculate their scores without missing anything, but it seems to confuse people more than it helps.

~Josh
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Brian Brokaw
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With all due respect to Josh and Endeavor's designers, I've found the best thing to do is to throw away the big rectangular scoring chips and FORGET that the tokens have the VP symbol on the back. It just confuses the final scoring.

Instead, print off a scoring sheet from the files section. It walks you through scoring. You will note that at no time does the quantity of tokens you accumulate equate to VP. As Josh stated, the tokens ONLY indirectly yield you VP... when you taken them they increase your STATUS TRACKS. (But cards and buildings also increase your status tracks, so status track scoring is not merely tokens.)

Anyway, this question has been asked many times. I'm sure someone has clarified it better than I have. Go check those posts out.
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Brian Brokaw
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Oh and I've found that old scoring sheets are helpful when explaining the game to new players. They get to see different winning and losing scoring combinations and it gives them a better feel for the end game...

Plus it is nice to review after a game so I know exactly how I always lose this game But I really like this game. It is beautiful and a perfect balance of complexity and duration for me.
 
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Carl Patten
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capthowdy_00 wrote:
The other party thought that you simply put the tokens back on the cities that you controled at the end of the game. ANd then count them as you remove them.

So then you only score the tokens that you have in addition to the cities that you are in at the end of the game? Correct?


It's such a nice rule book, and then the last page with the scoring screws it all up. It took my game group three tries to get it right.

Looking at the example on that page helps. Tokens, by themselves, are not scored. Period. They can, optionally, be used to help score other sections, and that is why they are printed with the VP mark on the back, and why the rules say one token = 1 VP. It was a bad decision by the designers and has led to no end of confusion.

 
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Randall Bart
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The scoring of this game could use a rewrite. In trying to simplify that wrote some very misleading rules.
 
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Josh Cappel
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Myok wrote:
It was a bad decision by the designers and has led to no end of confusion.



Usage of the trade tokens as VP counters was my suggestion and shouldn't be blamed on Carl & Jarratt.

The idea was that when the game ends, the trade tokens get swept away and then become scoring counters. This would enable us to provide scoring counters without having to print two entire new punchboards for that purpose. It seemed like a clever (and economical) idea at the time and made it past several rounds of rules-proofing without anyone predicting that it would be confusing.

Turns out that it was not a great idea after all, and has been the single most-common source of confusion regarding the otherwise elegant design. Lesson definitely learned: "Never give a component a dual purpose if it's even remotely possible that one purpose might be conflated with the other."

~Josh
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Brian Brokaw
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Please don't let the rhetoric get you down Josh. 1 "wrong" definitely does not overshadow 1,000 "rights". Your work is outstanding and definitely helps sell games. Its hard to imagine how many elegant games sit un-purchased or un-produced because they don't pass the Wow! test.
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David and Natalie
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Outside Lime wrote:
Myok wrote:
It was a bad decision by the designers and has led to no end of confusion.



Usage of the trade tokens as VP counters was my suggestion and shouldn't be blamed on Carl & Jarratt.

The idea was that when the game ends, the trade tokens get swept away and then become scoring counters. This would enable us to provide scoring counters without having to print two entire new punchboards for that purpose. It seemed like a clever (and economical) idea at the time and made it past several rounds of rules-proofing without anyone predicting that it would be confusing.

Turns out that it was not a great idea after all, and has been the single most-common source of confusion regarding the otherwise elegant design. Lesson definitely learned: "Never give a component a dual purpose if it's even remotely possible that one purpose might be conflated with the other."

~Josh


The only thing that confuses me with the scoring is that this question keeps coming up. It made complete sense to me the first time I read it, but I think this is more a sign that my brain ticks in a similar pattern to yours, and in a different one to some others! laugh
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Steve Duff
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Bah, the decision was fine, Josh.

I really don't see how anyone gets this wrong or finds it confusing. Simply do what the rules say. You get it right.

Quote:
Remove any remaining Trade Tokens from the game board and the Player Boards.


Spelled out in black and white. Take all the trade tokens you've earned and put them in the discard pile. Since you no longer have them, it's freakin' impossible to score them twice.

Quote:
(Be sure that all players’ Status Tracks are correct before their Trade Tokens are removed!) they will be used (glory-side up) along with previously discarded tokens to help count points.


Along with a friendly reminder to make sure things are correct before discarding, and yet another note that the only thing they're being used for is help you count.
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Randall Bart
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Outside Lime wrote:
The idea was that when the game ends, the trade tokens get swept away and then become scoring counters. This would enable us to provide scoring counters without having to print two entire new punchboards for that purpose.

Yes, that is a cheaper way to provide scoring counters. The problem is the concept of using scoring counters. There are four tracks on the board in front of you marking four scores. There are some X's to be counted on your cards and buildings. There are some cities and connections to count on the map. I now have six numbers, all of them under 20. I add them up in my head, though I appreciate that some people aren't math wizards and need to write it on paper or use a calculator. About 45 years ago my 2nd grade teacher demonstrated to the class how much harder it was to do that calculation using physical tokens. I think catering to players who flunked 2nd grade mathematics is a mistake.
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Josh Cappel
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brokasaphasia wrote:
Please don't let the rhetoric get you down Josh. 1 "wrong" definitely does not overshadow 1,000 "rights". Your work is outstanding and definitely helps sell games. Its hard to imagine how many elegant games sit un-purchased or un-produced because they don't pass the Wow! test.


Thank you! That's what I tell publishers when I'm negotiating my fee.

~Josh
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Josh Cappel
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Bah, the decision was fine, Josh.

I really don't see how anyone gets this wrong or finds it confusing. Simply do what the rules say. You get it right.

Quote:
Remove any remaining Trade Tokens from the game board and the Player Boards.


Spelled out in black and white. Take all the trade tokens you've earned and put them in the discard pile. Since you no longer have them, it's freakin' impossible to score them twice.

Quote:
(Be sure that all players’ Status Tracks are correct before their Trade Tokens are removed!) they will be used (glory-side up) along with previously discarded tokens to help count points.


Along with a friendly reminder to make sure things are correct before discarding, and yet another note that the only thing they're being used for is help you count.


I know, it seems sensible and well-explained to me too. But, there are many posts asking for clarification of the process, so obviously it could have been explained more clearly.
 
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Gary Rabinovich
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Josh,

Please do not take our confusion with the tokens as a problem with the game as a whole.
We realy enjoyed it and intend to play it many more times. With this being cleared up, it will make the game even more enjoyable.

I commend you and the rest of the designers on a job well done over all.
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alan beaumont
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Nobody's perfect
I find the easiest way to both keep count during the game and not get confused, is to place acquired tokens along their appropriate tracks (so sometimes under the cube) and use expended 'blues' to mark owned connectors, with a player token on top (this adds a halo to remind it isn't a city location).

The large VP counters were a waste of space, which could have been utilised to create perhaps some colour coded glory markers for those connectors. I've made some for my virtual board, and it is better than using the counter graphic as far as clarity is concerned.

Having said that the rules and example (which nobody seems to remember!?) makes scoring perfectly clear if you follow it through, so less sympathy for these problems than for those with the slightly tricky card discard rules!
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Josh Cappel
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Barticus88 wrote:

Yes, that is a cheaper way to provide scoring counters. The problem is the concept of using scoring counters. There are four tracks on the board in front of you marking four scores. There are some X's to be counted on your cards and buildings. There are some cities and connections to count on the map. I now have six numbers, all of them under 20. I add them up in my head, though I appreciate that some people aren't math wizards and need to write it on paper or use a calculator. About 45 years ago my 2nd grade teacher demonstrated to the class how much harder it was to do that calculation using physical tokens. I think catering to players who flunked 2nd grade mathematics is a mistake.


I see no harm in asking players to dig up a pencil and pad of paper for scoring games. Coming from a traditional Boggle/Scrabble background it seems normal to me.

Publishers aren't into it though. Supplying no method by which to track scores might be seen by gamers as skimping on the details. More than one publisher has asked me to add chits or a score track to games where the proto used a pad/pencil.

Personally I think it would be a smart idea for publishers (with a little cash on hand) to print up a huge run of generic scorepads and golf pencils (with their company branding, website, email address on them) to include in whichever of their games need them. Scoring simplicity AND brand awareness, together at last.

~J


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Steve Duff
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misteralan wrote:
The large VP counters were a waste of space...


That part I really agree with. I'd have liked to see that space used for a quick reference guide to the cards available in each region.

I can't count the number of times we pick up the decks and look all the way through them in order to make future plans.
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alan beaumont
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
misteralan wrote:
The large VP counters were a waste of space...
That part I really agree with. I'd have liked to see that space used for a quick reference guide to the cards available in each region.
I can't count the number of times we pick up the decks and look all the way through them in order to make future plans.
In the meanwhile print out the play aids showing the cards here on the geek, as I have.
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Chris Hawks
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
I'd have liked to see ... a quick reference guide to the cards available in each region.

I can't count the number of times we pick up the decks and look all the way through them in order to make future plans.

I agree 100%.
 
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Randall Bart
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Steve Duff
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I know they exist, I made one myself. I just don't think they should have to be user-made, for something so fundamental.
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Craig Liken
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Outside Lime wrote:
Barticus88 wrote:

Yes, that is a cheaper way to provide scoring counters. The problem is the concept of using scoring counters. There are four tracks on the board in front of you marking four scores. There are some X's to be counted on your cards and buildings. There are some cities and connections to count on the map. I now have six numbers, all of them under 20. I add them up in my head, though I appreciate that some people aren't math wizards and need to write it on paper or use a calculator. About 45 years ago my 2nd grade teacher demonstrated to the class how much harder it was to do that calculation using physical tokens. I think catering to players who flunked 2nd grade mathematics is a mistake.


I see no harm in asking players to dig up a pencil and pad of paper for scoring games. Coming from a traditional Boggle/Scrabble background it seems normal to me.

Publishers aren't into it though. Supplying no method by which to track scores might be seen by gamers as skimping on the details. More than one publisher has asked me to add chits or a score track to games where the proto used a pad/pencil.

Personally I think it would be a smart idea for publishers (with a little cash on hand) to print up a huge run of generic scorepads and golf pencils (with their company branding, website, email address on them) to include in whichever of their games need them. Scoring simplicity AND brand awareness, together at last.

~J




I also use the pad and pencil approach for a number of games including Endeavor. I have three totals for each player:

STATUS TRACKS
OTHER BOARD POINTS (eg University, card glory points)
CITIES and CONNECTIONS.

This is not unlike the way I do Puerto Rico

SHIPPING CHITS
BUILDINGS
BONUSES

Both seem to work very well.
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