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Subject: A formula to success rss

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Dane Barrett
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Here's one for those Thunderstone players who enjoy watching the blondes, brunettes and redheads in the Matrix. I'm not a master of mathematics by any means, so if anyone sees a problem with the formula please modify it, or redo it if you think my interpretation of the Battle system is fubar.

(ATTACK = ((0 + positive ATTACK modifiers)- negative ATTACK modifiers ) * any ATTACK multiplication modifiers) + (MAGIC ATTACK = ((0 + MAGIC ATTACK modifiers)- negative ATTACK modifiers ) * any MAGIC ATTACK multiplication modifiers) = [Combined ATTACK] - LIGHT Penalty if n < 0 (n = (0 + LIGHT modifiers)) = Total ATTACK score vs Monster

negative ATTACK modifiers can be subtracted from either ATTACK or MAGIC ATTACK, player's choice.
This formula doesn't take into account Monster abilities which can negate or halve ATTACK and/or MAGIC ATTACK.

Ugh, well the idea is right, but the mathematical format might be a bit wrong after all these years
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Jon W
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GROGnads, meet Leibniz.
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Jeff Thornsen
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It would probably be easier to create a new keyword, DAMAGE, which is how much DAMAGE you deal to the monster.

Disease now says: -1 DAMAGE
Judgement now says: All Heroes Suffer Strength -2. -1 DAMAGE per Hero involved in battle.
Light Penalty is -2 DAMAGE per Light you are short

My Revised Formula would be something like:

1. Calculate Physical ATTACK = Sum of all ATTACK Values * any ATTACK bonuses
2. Calculate Magical ATTACK = Sum of all MAGIC ATTACK Values * any MAGIC ATTACK bonuses
3. Reduce Physical and/or Magical ATTACK based on Monster Abilities (Magic Immune, 1/2 ATTACK, etc)
4. Base DAMAGE = Physical ATTACK + Magical ATTACK (after reductions)
5. Final DAMAGE = Base DAMAGE - (Diseases) - (Light Penalty) - (other DAMAGE penalties)
6. If Final DAMAGE >= Monster HP, Defeat monster, otherwise send to bottom of deck
 
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Ted Vessenes
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I strongly agree that the difference between ATTACK and DAMAGE needs to be stressed on cards, as it's highly confusing otherwise.

For the record, I was under the impression that potential doubling and halving always occurred last, after deducting the light penalty, and this was the reason the Selurian Warlock wasn't totally overpowered. If you have two warlocks and no light fighting in rank 2 of the dungeon, that means they have a base of 4 magic attack which is reduced to 0 magic attack from the light penalty, which is then multiplied by 4 to provide a grand total of 0 damage. In rank 1, they would have a (4-2)*4 = 8 damage.

Now I'm not sure if that's right, but as you've written the light penalty to apply afterwards, the calculation would be:

Rank 1: (4*4)-2 = 14
Rank 2: (4*4)-4 = 12
Rank 3: (4*4)-6 = 10

It seems insanely powerful that two cards and four worthless piece of trash can kill 95% of the monsters in the game. So it was my hypothesis that the card did exactly what it said-- applied the multiplication at the very end. But I could be wrong.
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Matthew Goddard
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It would be great if I could just play the game in Excel. Then I won't have to bring all those pesky cards to work
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David desJardins
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tedv wrote:
I was under the impression that potential doubling and halving always occurred last, after deducting the light penalty

Now I'm not sure if that's right


I'm sure that's not right. The attack value is what it is, you apply any modifiers and then you subtract the light penalty.
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Michael Stachiw
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mgoddard wrote:
It would be great if I could just play the game in Excel. Then I won't have to bring all those pesky cards to work


or program an excel spread sheet to play itself using a random seed. Then I won't have to spend all that pesky time playing solo games
 
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Dane Barrett
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tedv wrote:
For the record, I was under the impression that potential doubling and halving always occurred last, after deducting the light penalty, and this was the reason the Selurian Warlock wasn't totally overpowered.


Its covered under the Battle rules on Page 10 (both under v1.3 and now the v1.4 rulebooks). Light penalties are applied after the multiple modifiers.

The text in v1.4 of the rules is "Once you have assigned your Weapons and revealed any other cards that will help or hinder you in battle, apply any final Attack modifiers (such as doubling effects). Now add up your total Attack Value. Finally, once a Rank of the Dungeon Hall is chosen, you can adjust for any Light Penalties."

EDIT: I see that the fireball card is now on top of the torch card in the Lighting Penalty example. Its awesome how you guys are really taking in our concerns and acting on them
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Derek Mondeau
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Faranim wrote:
It would probably be easier to create a new keyword, DAMAGE, which is how much DAMAGE you deal to the monster.


I have two questions:

1) I don't understanding how adding a DAMAGE keyword makes battle clearer or easier. I don't think simply calling ATTACK --> DAMAGE makes the processes easier or clearer. DAMAGE in your formula serves the exact purpose as ATTACK currently serves in the rules.

Quote:
If Final DAMAGE > or = Monster HP, Defeat monster, otherwise send to bottom of deck.

If Final ATTACK > or = Monster HP, Defeat monster, otherwise send to bottom of deck


The only benefit I see is in terms of flavor, which is totally fine. I just want to make sure I understand.

2. Your formula significantly alters the timing of certain elements of battle resolution. I wasn't sure if you were saying your formulas represented battle as it is in Thunderstone or how you want it to be (other than the language change). I ask because, for example, the designers clearly want diseases and other non-light penalty modifiers to affect you before your multiply.

Quote:
If you have any Disease cards in your hand, you must also play those cards. A very small number of cards actually double your Attack Value. In this case, you must add and/or subtract all modifiers before multiplying the total...Once you have assigned your Weapons and revealed any other cards that will help or hinder you in battle, apply any final Attack modifiers (such as doubling effects). Now add up your total Attack Value. Finally, adjust for any Light Penalty. 1.4 p.10


All modifiers that lessen attack (or damage penalties as you call them) happen before you multiply except for light penalty. But in your formula those penalties happens after multiplication. This would make diseases significantly less powerful in your articulation and be a significant change to the rules.

Sorry if I totally misread your post.


If your formula is supposed to represent battle as it is in Thunderstone moving the Disease to pre-multiplication would be important for consistency. If not, then ignore me =).

 
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Stephen Cappello
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I always think of the Light penalty as adding power to the monster card. This is a simple way to remember that the light penalty is factored in after all effects/multiplications/halves.

I think that at some point this was the original way the game was designed, but the language was changed for one reason or another.

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