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Last Night on Earth: Survival of the Fittest» Forums » Rules

Subject: SotF: LOVE IT! But ... rss

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Dave Leach
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So I received a big ol' box of goodness via USPS yesterday; my SotF expansion, Grave Dead w/ Weapons and the Hero Pack 1 plus some goodies (signed poster, promo cards, signed card and the red Grave Dead w/ Weaps). All good! Very impressed with the quality of the entire thing.

Having read through the rules and obsessed over the new cards, I can say I'm 99% happy with everything that's been added. The list of stuff I love it MUCH longer than the list of stuff I'm not sure of. In the interest of saving time, I'll post the short list; just keep in mind that I'm diggin' what I see the vast majority of the time.

1. Combining. Okay. Duct tape. This is a great idea and for the most part it's awesome ... but what's the deal with combining dynamite? I agree that it should make the explosion more powerful, but why the hell does it make it "unstable"? I could maybe see this when combining dynamite with gasoline (why does this not result in a bigger boom?), but don't people tape sticks of dynamite together on a daily basis ....? Well, maybe not daily but you get the idea. And the fact that the combo no longer requires a fire source is odd; it's not like they're tossing vials of nitro. All in all, it's a great idea that seems a tad scattered in it's execution. I foresee a number of house rules with regard to this particular mechanic ... though I DO enjoy the image of Jenny taping a shotgun and a hunting rifle together like Ripley in Aliens.

2. Dots. Thanks you for fixing the dots! But one question. The "Hero Card Pool (X)". Why would anyone opt for Hero Starting Cards (1) or (2) when they can instead choose the Card Pool for the same cost and at the same time divvy up the cards in a manner that best suits the Hero allotment? I realize abilities like "Resourceful" don't play when using the Card Pool, but I'm still not certain this balances the two against one another. Also, it is specific that Scenario Search Items must be shuffled back into the deck ... but what about cards that allow one to search the deck for Search Items, like "Just What I Needed"? Are we forced to use the Optional Rule in this regard? Speaking of which, why is that rule optional??? That should be a hard and fast rule, a permanent part of the initial setup.

3. EDIT: Ignore #3. On hindsight, these are stupid questions with obvious answers. Townsfolk Allies (X). Do these guys replace Townsfolk Heroes? Are Townsfolk Heroes not "allowed" outside the Run For It! scenario? I mean, it's easy enough to add them using the dot cost listed in the scenario, but if they're not part of the revised rules it's hard to consider them an official option.

So yeah. Other than that, I absolutely adore SotF. I'm sure there exists a perfectly sound logic behind the rules I don't necessarily understand or agree with. Really, that's a very short list of gripes considering how much the expansion has added. Really great job, Flying Frog! Kudos, Mr. Hill! I look forward to many exciting years of zombie genocide!
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Rob Bell
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Deek wrote:
Also, it is specific that Scenario Search Items must be shuffled back into the deck ... but what about cards that allow one to search the deck for Search Items, like "Just What I Needed"?

Directly from the SotF rulebook Page 9:

"You may wish to use the optional rule that if a Hero gets a Scenario Search Item (or a card that lets them take a Scenario Search Item from the deck such as 'Just What I Needed') in their starting cards, that they must shuffle it back into the deck and draw again."

Considering it specifically mentions the card 'Just What I Needed' as part of the rule, I'm not sure what your question is supposed to be about.

Deek wrote:
Are we forced to use the Optional Rule in this regard?

Being forced to do something optional! What a funny notion! laugh


Deek wrote:
3. Townsfolk Allies (X). Do these guys replace Townsfolk Heroes?

I'm not sure why you think they would. They play completely differently and the rules make no mention of replacing Townsfolk Heroes with them.


Deek wrote:
Are Townsfolk Heroes not "allowed" outside the Run For It! scenario? I mean, it's easy enough to add them using the dot cost listed in the scenario, but if they're not part of the revised rules it's hard to consider them an official option.

What?

They both seem plenty official to me.

Where does it say that the Dots rules in the SotF rulebook are the "complete revised rules"?

'Townsfolk Heroes' are not a part of any of the scenarios included in SotF, so it did not need to be in the rulebook.

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Dave Leach
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I won't quote everything you said, but ...

The rules for Hero Card Pool and Hero Starting Cards only mention that Scenario Search Items must be shuffled back into the deck. I was simply wondering if this also extended to cards like "Just What I Needed" with regard to the specific Special Rules, or whether we are forced to invoke the optional rule if we wish to guard against a prematurely short game.

Quoting the optional rule proves nothing, it's an entirely separate ruling. Imagine we're playing Escape in the Truck and the group decides NOT to envoke the optional rule (one Hero refuses to agree). The players choose Hero Starting Card (2) and manage to draw "Just What I Needed". How is that different than drawing the Keys or Gasoline? Sure, players don't HAVE to choose the Search Item option, but they'd be retarded not to. I can see your point, but why was it necessary to make this an optional rule? Why not make this a permanent rule governing every pertinent aspect of the game; setup, Special Rules, everything.

You do make a good point, only the Special Rules featured in the specific SotF scenarios are outlined in the rules, as is the case with every Flying frog expansion/scenario. Maybe I got a little ahead of myself on that one.

I love the game. I'm simply outlining several small concerns I have with the new ruleset. Is that somehow out of line? I still think my thoughts on combining and the optional rule are justified. No need to be confrontational. I'm a noob. Have mercy.

EDIT: Edited the poop out of this, thought better of my initial response. No need to get silly. Cheers.
 
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Rob Bell
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Whoa! Calm down, buddy.

I was not trying to be confrontational and I'm not sure how I put words into your mouth either. I was simply being me. I'm sorry if I offended you or something, that was not my intent. No hard feelings.

People do generally tend to take me more seriously than they should, so it's cool.

Deek wrote:
The rules for Hero Card Pool and Hero Starting Cards only mention that Scenario Search Items must be shuffled back into the deck. I was simply wondering if this also extended to cards like "Just What I Needed" with regard to the specific Special Rules, or whether we are forced to invoke the optional rule if we wish to guard against a prematurely short game.


Ah.. makes more sense now. I'm sorry. I told you that I didn't understand your question. I still think the rules covered in the Optional Rules completely apply here though.

Deek wrote:
I can see your point, but why was it necessary to make this an optional rule? Why not make this a permanent rule governing every pertinent aspect of the game; setup, Special Rules, everything.


I agree with you completely on that; it certainly should have been a permanent rule from day one. Hindsight is 20-20, I guess...

Deek wrote:
I assume Allies are NOT meant to replace Townsfolk Heroes, but I saw no harm in asking.


No harm at all. I just didn't understand how or why you considered a Dots rule from an Official online Scenario to be something other than an Official Dots rule.

Deek wrote:
You do make a good point, only the Special Rules featured in the specific SotF scenarios are outlined in the rules. Still, that covers the vast majority of said Special Rules. Are there any they left out other than Townsfolk Heroes? I'm asking a serious question, not trying to be a smartass.


Sure! Zombie Pillage, Grave Dead, Free Search Markers... rules that are not used in the scenarios that came with SotF.

Deek wrote:
The SotF rulebook revised certain Special Rules such as Hero Starting Card. With that in mind, at least with regard to Scenario Special Rules, I would consider the SotF rules to be revised. Wouldn't you?"


Sure the specific Dots rules that are included in the rulebook are revised, but it is far from a complete (and revised) list of all the Dots rules.


Deek wrote:
I love the game. I'm simply outlining several small concerns I have with the new ruleset. Is that somehow out of line?


Of course not. Who said you were out of line? I just didn't understand some of your questions. You seem to have misunderstood my post in some way. Let's call a truce or something!


EDIT: Hmmm... It seems you edited your post as I was typing a response...

So is this a truce?
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Dave Leach
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As you can see, I edited my post immediately after I posted it (and just before you unleashed you barrage of quote!). Obviously I was being out of line and I quickly realized the error in a number of my statements (especially asking for a list of Special Rules not included in the SotF rulebook; I immediately thought to myself, "Dude, GRAVE DEAD aren't even listed! Duuuuurrrrr).

"Thankfully" (?) you got in under the line and were able to post my noobosity for all to see. Such is life on the interwebs.

Sorry, something about your post rubbed me the wrong way. My bad. Truce accepted!
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Jee Fu
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The Hero Starting Cards (X) gives each Hero X cards, whereas the Card Pool (X) divides X cards among all the Heroes.

So like, the former gives you more cards per hero, and the latter gives you less cards total but you're allowed to say who gets what. You could give the hand-weapons all to Jenny or Victor, or pass the Guitar to billy, etc. The 2nd option allows to you to play to the heroes' strengths, but the 1st option gives you a pimp-wad of cards in a less flexibly format.
 
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Rob Bell
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Deek wrote:
As you can see, I edited my post immediately after I posted it (and just before you unleashed you barrage of quote!). Obviously I was being out of line and I quickly realized the error in a number of my statements (especially asking for a list of Special Rules not included in the SotF rules; I immediately thought to myself, "Dude, GRAVE DEAD aren't even listed!).

"Thankfully" (?) you got in under the line and were able to post my noobosity for all to see. Such is life on the interwebs.

Sorry, something about your post rubbed me the wrong way. My bad. Truce accepted!





zombie
 
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Dave Leach
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Inspector Jee wrote:
The Hero Starting Cards (X) gives each Hero X cards, whereas the Card Pool (X) divides X cards among all the Heroes.

So like, the former gives you more cards per hero, and the latter gives you less cards total but you're allowed to say who gets what.

Hmm. Hero Starting Cards give each hero a card (or two). Starting Cards (1) with a cost of 2 dots, you get 4 cards across 4 Heroes (1 card each) w/ no choice as to who gets what. With Hero Card Pool (4), with a cost of 2 dots (half of "X"), you get 4 cards to divide between 4 Heroes however you choose. Same can be said of Hero Starting Card (2) and Hero Card Pool (8). They both cost four dots, but with the Card Pool you get total control over which Hero gets what card. The only real benefit to Hero Starting Cards is the fact that you can use Resourceful (and similar abilities).

... or am I way off base? I've been wrong before. This thread proves it!
 
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Tom Dohrn Jr
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While I myself wouldn't question how official the Townsfolk Heroes are, I did find it questionable that they are the same dots rating as the Townsfolk Allies. I mean, Townsfolk Heroes are basically extra heroes, although limited in a few ways such as carrying capacity and freedom of turn order. Essentially you are getting additional heroes. They do spawn Zombies upon death, but really, Zombies are going to spawn anyway. I don't see this as much of a negative. Townsfolk Allies cannot do anything on their own; move, hold weapons, search... they are basically sitting ducks waiting for rescue. Granted, their ability to attack adjacent spaces, even while on the move, is pretty sweet, but I still don't see these as being equal. I believe that there should be a minimum of 1 dot difference between the two. What are your opinions on this?
 
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Dave Leach
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worldmaggot wrote:
While I myself wouldn't question how official the Townsfolk Heroes are, I did find it questionable that they are the same dots rating as the Townsfolk Allies.

I think this is where my confusion stemmed from, to be honest. It seemed odd that the two were considered equal in terms of dot value and I began to think maybe Allies were meant to replace Heroes.

When I really think about it though, I see that Allies and Heroes both have upsides and downsides. The primary concern with Townsfolk Heroes is the way they move, having to share movement randomly determined by a d6 roll. Allies, on the other hand, while not nearly as powerful and independent, move with the player Heroes and act like little attack satellites. Depending on the scenario, this could be seen as a major advantage compared to a group of slow moving Townsfolk Heroes.

I'm not sure if the two balance each other out at 2 dots per, nor am I convinced it's a totally unreasonable assumption. In other words, I see where you're coming from, but I also understand what Flying Frog was trying to do. If I had to choose, I think maybe the Townsfolk Heroes have more inherent value, especially when you factor in their special card abilities. T-Bone and Principal Gomez can really turn a game with their card canceling, and Lizzie is an absolute monster.
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Jason Hill
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Hey Guys,

Glad to hear that you're enjoying the new Expansions!

As to the Starting Cards vs Card Pool, remember also that the starting cards also apply to new Heroes entering play mid game where as Card Pool is only at the start of the game. This can make a serious difference if the Zombies are killing heroes, especially with Heroes Replenish active.

- Jason
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Dave Leach
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jchill7 wrote:
As to the Starting Cards vs Card Pool, remember also that the starting cards also apply to new Heroes entering play mid game where as Card Pool is only at the start of the game. This can make a serious difference if the Zombies are killing heroes, especially with Heroes Replenish active.


Huh! Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Dev: 1
Me: 0

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Jason Emerson
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I just got my copies of the new expansions yesterday and like what I see for the most part, but one of the new rules strikes me as a little odd.

I like the combining item mechanic with duct tape, but why would taping 2 guns together allow you to make 2 ranged attacks against 2 different targets? If the targets were in the same location, I could maybe see this but the rules don't seem to prevent you from attacking 2 completely separate zombies in one turn... Should this read 2 targets in the same space?
 
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Jason Emerson
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I think I misspoke - the rules do say a single ranged attack using both guns when combined - so I think it is implied that the targets are in the same space...maybe I answered my own question...
 
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